For your information, the doctrine of "free will" is NOT an "idea". Where did you get this from? It is clearly taught in Scripture, but has been under attack by the Calvinistic group in the Church, who suppose that their "bondage of the will" theory is actually found in the Bible. True, if you were to work hard enough eith Scripture, then you can get it to say almost anything.
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Did Jesus have free will?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
In Heaven we will be Unable to Sin and Able to Not Sin.
In Heaven we will be Like Jesus.
Now does this mean that Jesus was somehow changed when he ascended into heaven?
Do you think he was like us in that he was Able to Sin and Able to Not Sin?
In Heaven we will be Like Jesus.
Now does this mean that Jesus was somehow changed when he ascended into heaven?
Do you think he was like us in that he was Able to Sin and Able to Not Sin?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
We "can" sin now and we "can" sin in heaven - but we WONT because we will CHOOSE not to.
I think that this same ABILITY was demonstrated by Christ as He said "Father if it be POSSIBLE let this cup pass from Me". He wanted a way out. This was not a sin - He always had the power to free Himself, slay His tormentors - but He did not want to do anything outside of the Father's Will - so He is asking that the Father find another way out.
In anycase - whatever you think of that - I don't think the issue is the Calvinist idea of "if you do something that someone/something MADE you do it" - rather I think we all have choice now and will continue to have it in heaven.
And I think choice is always limited to the realm of "ability". You may not "choose" to be invisible for example.
IN Christ,
Bob
I think that this same ABILITY was demonstrated by Christ as He said "Father if it be POSSIBLE let this cup pass from Me". He wanted a way out. This was not a sin - He always had the power to free Himself, slay His tormentors - but He did not want to do anything outside of the Father's Will - so He is asking that the Father find another way out.
In anycase - whatever you think of that - I don't think the issue is the Calvinist idea of "if you do something that someone/something MADE you do it" - rather I think we all have choice now and will continue to have it in heaven.
And I think choice is always limited to the realm of "ability". You may not "choose" to be invisible for example.
IN Christ,
Bob
"We can sin now, and we can sin in heaven"
What Bible do you guys use? Have you never read Revelation chapter 21?
""And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (verse 4)
And, in verse 8 we are told:
""But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
When we get to heaven, which is "free from sin", and the deceiver, the devil will not be there, and our sinful human natures will be changed to be like that of our Blessed Saviour. How, then can you say that we "will be able to sin". Who is going to tempt us? God? If the person who is the cause of our sinning, the devil will not be in heaven, then it can only be that "we will NOT be able to sin".
Before the fall the devil was roaming about, and was able to temp Adam and Eve to disobey God. But, Scripture informs us that the devil will be cast into the lake of fire.
Heaven is without sin.
What Bible do you guys use? Have you never read Revelation chapter 21?
""And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (verse 4)
And, in verse 8 we are told:
""But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
When we get to heaven, which is "free from sin", and the deceiver, the devil will not be there, and our sinful human natures will be changed to be like that of our Blessed Saviour. How, then can you say that we "will be able to sin". Who is going to tempt us? God? If the person who is the cause of our sinning, the devil will not be in heaven, then it can only be that "we will NOT be able to sin".
Before the fall the devil was roaming about, and was able to temp Adam and Eve to disobey God. But, Scripture informs us that the devil will be cast into the lake of fire.
Heaven is without sin.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I agree with you that heaven is free of sin and sorrow and crying. Not because evil or tragedy will be happening but we "can not cry" -- rather the point is strong and meaningful because although we CAN cry and experience sorrow we "wont" since there are no sad tragedies taking place.
If today God said that all crying and sorrow on earth shall cease - because our brains are zapped so that we can not cry or feel pain no matter how awful the event -- would that "convey bliss"?
A well drugged patient can already achieve that level of bliss but it says nothing about real conditions on earth unless we Do not cry BECAUSE there are no awful conditions. Not because our brains are zapped out of being "able" to express pain -- but because being ABLE to -- there IS no pain!
Basically I am thinking that your text from Rev 21 is making my point.
If today God said that all crying and sorrow on earth shall cease - because our brains are zapped so that we can not cry or feel pain no matter how awful the event -- would that "convey bliss"?
A well drugged patient can already achieve that level of bliss but it says nothing about real conditions on earth unless we Do not cry BECAUSE there are no awful conditions. Not because our brains are zapped out of being "able" to express pain -- but because being ABLE to -- there IS no pain!
Basically I am thinking that your text from Rev 21 is making my point.
So Jesus had to have something that every other man and woman who ever lived didn't have.
The Ability to Not Sin.
Now the Bible clearly says that All have sinned and have come short of the Glory of God.
Except Jesus.
What made him able to not sin where all the rest of us have failed?
The Ability to Not Sin.
Now the Bible clearly says that All have sinned and have come short of the Glory of God.
Except Jesus.
What made him able to not sin where all the rest of us have failed?
Your basic understanding is faulty. You simply cannot compare Jesus with Adam. Adam was only human, whereas Jesus Christ is both 100% God and 100% Man. When Satan would have tempted Jesus, he would have done so to the Person Jesus Christ, and not just His "human nature". The Person Jesus Christ, is God-Man. Scripture tells us that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13). As I have already shown, that "temptation" to comit sin, is so done, that the person who is tempted, is hoped will give in. Jesus felt the "force" to do wrong by Satan, when the deceiver made tried to get Jesus to go against what the Godhead already had agreed, will take place. But, there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was ever troubled by what Satan tempted Him with, as we would have been. But met the enemy with the force of the Word of God.
I see no problem in the reality of the temptations of Jesus, when accepting that He was "not able to sin". Temptation of itself is not sin, but giving into temptation certainly is.
Well we are making progress. We finally hear a non-Calvinist who is willing to distinguish between the nature of man before the fall and after the fall.
Well we are making progress. We finally hear a non-Calvinist who is willing to distinguish between the nature of man before the fall and after the fall. </font>[/QUOTE]What complete nonsense. Which non-Calvinists you know who believe that man retained his same nature after this fall? You Calvinists argue without the facts, and try to make those who are not with you on these issues to be some kind of fools!
Well we are making progress. We finally hear a non-Calvinist who is willing to distinguish between the nature of man before the fall and after the fall. </font>[/QUOTE]What complete nonsense. Which non-Calvinists you know who believe that man retained his same nature after this fall? You Calvinists argue without the facts, and try to make those who are not with you on these issues to be some kind of fools! </font>[/QUOTE]OK so describe this difference.
Adam (man) before the fall and man after the fall.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Man after the fall has a sinFUL nature and is totally depraved in that regard as Romans 3 states. Man - left to himself and without the supernatural drawing and enabling power of God -- remains in rebellion.
(So long as the picture remains "Without God" we have "Calvinism").
So "GOD (supernaturally) DRAWS ALL mankind to Himself" - and "presto!" we have Arminianism!!
But then the Romans 7 battle is joined and man engages in the fight according to the rules of Romans 8. "BY the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - a daily choice in which Paul declares "I DIE DAILY" 1 Cor 15.
What a great Gospel!
In Christ,
Bob
(So long as the picture remains "Without God" we have "Calvinism").
So "GOD (supernaturally) DRAWS ALL mankind to Himself" - and "presto!" we have Arminianism!!
But then the Romans 7 battle is joined and man engages in the fight according to the rules of Romans 8. "BY the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - a daily choice in which Paul declares "I DIE DAILY" 1 Cor 15.
What a great Gospel!
In Christ,
Bob
Bob,
At least you haven't tried to give man something he doesn't have.
Inherent ability after the fall to choose God.
My question after reading your post would be to ask you when does this drawing of all mankind take place?
At least you haven't tried to give man something he doesn't have.
Inherent ability after the fall to choose God.
My question after reading your post would be to ask you when does this drawing of all mankind take place?
So you're saying that all men because of the Crucifixion/resurrection/Ascension of Christ are drawn to Christ?
Is this drawing automatically present when you're born or does it have to accompany the proclamation of the Gospel at some point between a person's birth and death?
[ April 28, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Hardsheller ]
Is this drawing automatically present when you're born or does it have to accompany the proclamation of the Gospel at some point between a person's birth and death?
[ April 28, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Hardsheller ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
All mankind drawn all the time by the work of the Holy Spirit who "CONVICTS THE WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.
ALL mankind drawn ALL the time by the work of Christ "WHO MADE the World...and COMING INTO THE WORLD he is the lighg that enlightens EVERY MAN" John 1.
All mankind - All the time.
ENABLED to choose via supernatural "enabling".
ALL mankind drawn ALL the time by the work of Christ "WHO MADE the World...and COMING INTO THE WORLD he is the lighg that enlightens EVERY MAN" John 1.
All mankind - All the time.
ENABLED to choose via supernatural "enabling".
So all men are restored to the Adamic state prior to their conversion? They didn't have this "enabling" before Christ was lifted up? So they did lose something during the fall that Christ has restored? I'm confused.
Which of the following could you not agree with?
Adam = able to sin, able to not sin
Post Adamic man = able to sin, unable to not sin
Redeemed man = able to sin, able to not sin
Glorified man = able to not sin, unable to sin
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. All are not restored to having a sinless nature as Adam had. This only comes at glorification - which happens at the resurrection. (1Cor 15)
#2. Those who are "NEW CREATIONS" (2Cor 5) as a result of the new birth (Gospel -- > New Covenant) recieve a new nature in Christ - and also have their sinful nature -- hence the battle of Romans 7 that is joined. They now AGREE with their mind -- with the Law of God -- but there is a war in their members -- having two natures. They must do the work of Romans 8 "Put to death the deeds of the flesh" with the choice of Paul to "Die daily" 1Cor 15.
That is a very different situation from what Adam faced.
However they are ENABLED to win - as we are told in 1Cor 10 due to the "Faithfulness" of God.
#3. Adam - could sin - and could choose not to sin. Nothing MADE him sin.
#4. Post fall man is ABLE to sin and UNNABLE to obey apart from the drawing power of God. The drawing power of God ENABLES fallen man to CHOOSE life.
#5. Redeemed man can choose to sin or can choose to obey. Romans 6 argues (motivates) him to CHOOSE obedience via a logical moral argument.
#6. Glorified man no longer has the sinful nature, no longer has the two-nature-battle and can choose obedience or rebellin EXACTLY on the same basis as pre-fall Adam could choose.
God has created a FREE WILL universe which means that He does not ZAP obedience He MOTIVATES it via compelling argument, data, pursuasion, facts - ... the MIND chooses based on information.
The "information" obtained from this 6000 year "sin experiment" results in a FREE WILL -- free agency universe that is forever free from rebellion.
The unfolding of the experiment of rebellion is key to an eternally secure universe ONCE sin entered that system this was the only "secure" way out.
So not only is there a REASON that God allowed Adam to be tested - but there is also a REASON for 6000 years of sin and suffering.
Withoug that ARMINIAN -- "free agency" principle, there would be NO REASON to let sin go one second beyond Lucifer. In fact there would be NO REASON to ALLOW Lucifer to sin at all. (Much less Eve, Much less Adam and the fall of humanity, Much less having to send God the Son on such an expensive rescue mission, much less allowing sin for 6000 years)
In Christ,
Bob
#2. Those who are "NEW CREATIONS" (2Cor 5) as a result of the new birth (Gospel -- > New Covenant) recieve a new nature in Christ - and also have their sinful nature -- hence the battle of Romans 7 that is joined. They now AGREE with their mind -- with the Law of God -- but there is a war in their members -- having two natures. They must do the work of Romans 8 "Put to death the deeds of the flesh" with the choice of Paul to "Die daily" 1Cor 15.
That is a very different situation from what Adam faced.
However they are ENABLED to win - as we are told in 1Cor 10 due to the "Faithfulness" of God.
#3. Adam - could sin - and could choose not to sin. Nothing MADE him sin.
#4. Post fall man is ABLE to sin and UNNABLE to obey apart from the drawing power of God. The drawing power of God ENABLES fallen man to CHOOSE life.
#5. Redeemed man can choose to sin or can choose to obey. Romans 6 argues (motivates) him to CHOOSE obedience via a logical moral argument.
#6. Glorified man no longer has the sinful nature, no longer has the two-nature-battle and can choose obedience or rebellin EXACTLY on the same basis as pre-fall Adam could choose.
God has created a FREE WILL universe which means that He does not ZAP obedience He MOTIVATES it via compelling argument, data, pursuasion, facts - ... the MIND chooses based on information.
The "information" obtained from this 6000 year "sin experiment" results in a FREE WILL -- free agency universe that is forever free from rebellion.
The unfolding of the experiment of rebellion is key to an eternally secure universe ONCE sin entered that system this was the only "secure" way out.
So not only is there a REASON that God allowed Adam to be tested - but there is also a REASON for 6000 years of sin and suffering.
Withoug that ARMINIAN -- "free agency" principle, there would be NO REASON to let sin go one second beyond Lucifer. In fact there would be NO REASON to ALLOW Lucifer to sin at all. (Much less Eve, Much less Adam and the fall of humanity, Much less having to send God the Son on such an expensive rescue mission, much less allowing sin for 6000 years)
In Christ,
Bob
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Bob.
Very good post Amen
Mike
Very good post Amen
Mike