Did Jesus have free will?

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

Your words, my emphasis! Am I not directly quoting you?

God gave man nothing that He does not have, except a physical body, and infinite everything! He made man in his image with one exception. Since God has nothing to "hope for" and since there is nothing God cannot see. He has no requirement to have faith! Whereas, with our limitations, We must have faith because all we have are promises of what is ahead, that we cannot see!

You are screwing with biblical principles here, not me! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest

To say that God has to have faith before he can give faith is as ridiculous as saying that God has to be a physical being before He could create a physical universe. Scripture plainly teaches that God is Spirit in John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Are you going to deny this Scripture and argue that God must be a physical being in order to create a physical universe?

Wes, Quit chasing your tail, let the dogs do that.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Reverse your propositions and you will be closer to the truth. Unregenerate man is not only in bondage to sin but is spiritually dead and, therefore, cannot respond until he is made spiritually alive.

Bob said --
You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all the total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

Originally posted by OldRegular:

I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10

I beg to differ - look at the above sequence and "see" that in fact it is not simply a quote of Eph 2 - but a denial of the efficiency of the work of the Holy Spirit in step #1.

(I guess I could argue that I was just reading John 12:32 and John 16 -- eh?)

OldRegular
which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive

BOTH sides argue that point. BOTH say that the lost person is LOST. BOTH say that the LOST person is ENABLED to CHOOSE to place faith in Christ. BOTH say that WHILE LOST God makes the change to becoming SAVED.

But the Arminian view is that the LOST person CHOOSES as Romans 10 states RESULTING in Salvation - RESULTING in the NEW birth, RESULTING in the New Creation.

(I am just reading Romans 10).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Wes Outwest]

To say that God has to have faith before he can give faith is as ridiculous as saying that God has to be a physical being before He could create a physical universe. Scripture plainly teaches that God is Spirit in John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Quote me correctly, do not twist my words or meanings! I did not say that God has to have faith! I said that God has no faith to give! The rest is your contrivance!

Are you going to deny this Scripture and argue that God must be a physical being in order to create a physical universe?

Where have I denied scripture? I use the very same scriptures that you do! If I am denying them, you are too! I am understanding them differently than you do, because I look at all of God's creation to validate the scriptures, where you are not doing so or you would see the truth of what I am saying.

Wes, Quit chasing your tail, let the dogs do that.

There's something to be said for chasing one's tail. While doing so, one is not subject to the strange "winds of doctrine" that have gripped you!

 

[Scott J]

You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all that total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

No. I have not assumed that at all.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

I don't know what "step #1" you are referring to but God made "step #1" when He chose the redeemed in Christ before the foundation of the world.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

I am not following. What choice and whose choosing?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

Originally posted by Scott J:
I can almost agree with that post except we are in slavery to sin until the Holy Spirit regenerates us and leaves us free to place our trust in Christ. [/QB]

AS I said to OldRegular

You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all that total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott said --
I am not following. What choice and whose choosing?

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

Were they actually given faith? OR, were they given what is essential in the form of knowledge with which to have faith?</font>[/QUOTE] We are given a new nature from which faith inevitably manifests itself.

If you say they were given the actual faith, then you are saying that God, the Supreme and only living God of the universe has faith to give, and that is counter everything we as Christians believe about God.

That is possibly the most ridiculous argument I have seen in all the time I have been studying this issue.

God doesn't have physical breath... can He give it?

God doesn't need salvation... can He give it?

God doesn't need humility... can He grant it?

"Faith" is the direct result of a changed nature. God can quicken a person's spiritual nature every bit as easily as He can quicken one's physical body through resurrection.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

Absolutely, it is not a commodity that God sends to us via UPS. It is an attitude toward spiritual realities... it is the ability to see realities that are not naturally apparent.

Please tell us anything that God would hope for, and identify what you perceive it to be that God cannot see! You could win this one if you can!

Your premise and argument are so bad that they are self-defeating. The only thing needed to "win this one" is that God can grant things to men that He has no need of Himself.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />To say that God has to have faith before he can give faith is as ridiculous as saying that God has to be a physical being before He could create a physical universe. Scripture plainly teaches that God is Spirit in John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Quote me correctly, do not twist my words or meanings! I did not say that God has to have faith! I said that God has no faith to give! The rest is your contrivance!</font>[/QUOTE] OR is absolutely on target. God is infinite and can "give" anything He so desires.

I use the very same scriptures that you do! If I am denying them, you are too! I am understanding them differently than you do, because I look at all of God's creation to validate the scriptures, where you are not doing so or you would see the truth of what I am saying.

There is nothing in nature that demonstrates what you are saying- whether God has "faith to give" or not.

The whole proposition is ridiculous because you insist on talking about "faith" as if it were something you could buy at Walmart.

Saving faith is a manifestation of a changed spiritual nature and direct evidence of spiritual regeneration.

What exactly do you look at in creation to "validate" scripture? This sounds a whole lot like an excuse to resort to your own opinions about the way things should be when you can't exactly line it up with scripture.

 

[Wes Outwest]

OR is absolutely on target. God is infinite and can "give" anything He so desires.

It remains your contrivance! I have not said that, and your misquote does not reflect any semblance of my meaning. Now that is absolutely on target, while yours ain't even pointed in the right direction.


Man is finite, so why doesn't this "...can give anything he so desires" God of yours give man Omniscience, Omnipresence, everlasting life without the need for faith, etc., etc., etc. Why doesn't he simply give man eternity? Why waste all the effort in atoning for, electing, and then saving? Infinite, almighty, "Give anything he desires God" should be able to do that, right?

 

[Wes Outwest]

There is nothing in nature that demonstrates what you are saying- whether God has "faith to give" or not.

Then why do you claim that he does give faith?

The whole proposition is ridiculous because you insist on talking about "faith" as if it were something you could buy at Walmart.

Not true, Faith is something that comes from within, and is based on knowledge.

Saving faith is a manifestation of a changed spiritual nature and direct evidence of spiritual regeneration.

Saving Faith comes from within, and it too is based on Knowledge that is derived from Hearing the Word of God. Faith in God is God's requirement of man!

What exactly do you look at in creation to "validate" scripture? This sounds a whole lot like an excuse to resort to your own opinions about the way things should be when you can't exactly line it up with scripture.

Matt 6:25-34. `That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, nor about your body and what you are to wear. Surely life is more than food, and the body more than clothing! 26. Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? 27. Can any of you, however much you worry, add one single cubit to your span of life? 28. And why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers growing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; 29. yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his royal robes was clothed like one of these. 30. Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith? 31. So do not worry; do not say, `What are we to eat? What are we to drink? What are we to wear?' 32. It is the gentiles who set their hearts on all these things. Your heavenly Father knows you need them all. 33. Set your hearts on his kingdom first, and on God's saving justice, and all these other things will be given you as well. 34. So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

 

[Frogman]

But the Arminian view is that the LOST person CHOOSES as Romans 10 states RESULTING in Salvation - RESULTING in the NEW birth, RESULTING in the New Creation.

Read the whole of Romans 10, again.

It does not show the order to be the lost person choosing anything, in fact, Romans 10 expressly teaches Irristable Grace.

a debtor to free Grace
Bro. Dallas

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is nothing in nature that demonstrates what you are saying- whether God has "faith to give" or not.

Then why do you claim that he does give faith? </font>[/QUOTE] I said He gives a new nature that results in saving faith. In other words, a person is born again per John 3 of the Holy Spirit.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The whole proposition is ridiculous because you insist on talking about "faith" as if it were something you could buy at Walmart.

Not true, Faith is something that comes from within, and is based on knowledge. </font>[/QUOTE] So you are back to saying that man secures his own salvation through making a good choice and that some men are better/wiser/more discerning than others so God rewards that merit with salvation, right?

You can't have it both ways Wes. Either God gets ultimate credit or else man does. If believe God's choice and grace are ultimately ineffective unless man makes a good choice all of his own accord then why not just be honest and say that man deserves credit?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Saving faith is a manifestation of a changed spiritual nature and direct evidence of spiritual regeneration.

Saving Faith comes from within, and it too is based on Knowledge that is derived from Hearing the Word of God. Faith in God is God's requirement of man! </font>[/QUOTE] What is "comes from within"? What precisely makes one person say yes and another no? Is it man's goodness or God's?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What exactly do you look at in creation to "validate" scripture? This sounds a whole lot like an excuse to resort to your own opinions about the way things should be when you can't exactly line it up with scripture.

Matt 6:25-34....

</font>[/QUOTE]There is nothing in that text that bestows upon you the authority to use your opinions derived from "creation" to validate or ostensibly to invalidate scripture.

God does reveal Himself by general revelation in nature. However, interpretations or ideas derived from one's perspective on nature NEVER approach the authority of the plain teachings of God's Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Instead of irresistable grace "making a born again saint as step one" and then having that saved saint - express faith in their Savior as step two ---

we have CONFESSION as step one and THEN the new Birth salvation event where we become a child of God- saved, justificed, at one with God...

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[BobRyan]

But we could "imagine" a Romans 10 for Calvinists...

"Whoever is born again and saved will then believe".

"whoever is saved, justified and a new creation reconciled to God in Christ WILL then confess with his mouth and believe with his heart".

Oh what a time Arminians would have trying to turn such a text on its head to get it back to Arminianism --

You know... just like Calvinists have to do with the REAL version of Romans 10!

 

[Scott J]

Why do some believe while others do not? See verse 20.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But the Arminian view is that the LOST person CHOOSES as Romans 10 states RESULTING in Salvation - RESULTING in the NEW birth, RESULTING in the New Creation.

Read the whole of Romans 10, again.

It does not show the order to be the lost person choosing anything, in fact, Romans 10 expressly teaches Irristable Grace.

a debtor to free Grace
Bro. Dallas

</font>[/QUOTE]"Romans 10 expressly teaches Irristable Grace"

Have you got a special Bible? I don't see this doctrine in this chapter. care to give us the verses?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Why do some believe while others do not? See verse 20.

If only the chapter started with vs 20 - eh?

The problem is the "details" on "when salvation" occurs and the fact that you must first "believe" and "confess" before salvation happens (new birth, new creation, Law of God written on the heart, new Covenant etc) sinks Calvinism's ship before it gets a chance to sail out of port.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Why do some believe while others do not? See verse 20.

If only the chapter started with vs 20 - eh?

The problem is the "details" on "when salvation" occurs and the fact that you must first "believe" and "confess" before salvation happens (new birth, new creation, Law of God written on the heart, new Covenant etc) sinks Calvinism's ship before it gets a chance to sail out of port.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]If that were in any part true, this debate would not have raged for the better part of the last 500 years... or perhaps before (re: Augustine).

Both sides have scriptures that are difficult to reconcile.

As I mentioned in another post, I don't think that time or before vs after is adequate. It is more a matter of what factor is preeminent at the salvation event. Only if regeneration is first can God remain sovereign while man's free will remains unencumbered... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Regeneration or spiritual quickening frees rather than binds a person. It would be hard to imagine someone thinking that Jews were forced into freedom by liberating allied soldiers but that is a barely a faint image of what is suggested by saying that God forces salvation on someone by giving them a new nature.

 

[BobRyan]

Scott J
Only if regeneration is first can God remain sovereign while man's free will remains unencumbered

Nope. You just "make that up" and because of that - it can not be construed as a kind of "exegesis" for Romans 10.

As already pointed out "IN" the text - "Belief" and "confession" come BEFORE "salvation".

The argument that the New Covenant, new birth, new creation IS NOT really salvation -- is impossible to make from scripture -- but it is one of the many innexplicable self-conflicted corners that Calvinism is forced into by its own speculations.

Let me ask you this - what does the supernatural DRAWING OF God enable? Choice??

In Christ,

Bob