Did Jesus have free will?

BobRyan · May 5, 2005

Scott J

... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Faith COMES by HEARING. Rom 10

To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith. Rom 12

First there is the CONVICTING power of the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The unconverted mind is confronted,

The Holy Spirit also supernaturally "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" to Christ.

The unconverted mind is supernaturally DRAWN and ENABLED to respond - but is NOT in full agrement with God or His law -- it is ENABLED to choose repentance.

The is Christ "STANDING at the DOOR and KNOCKING" Rev 3.

By "contrast" Calvinism pictures it as "CHRIST SUDDENLY INSIDE the house AND OPENING the door"

You have the wrong model.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 5, 2005

What you call empowered to act but not having yet believed -- is what I call "drawn" by the Holy Spiirt and not yet converted/born-again.

You claim that God CAN NOT empower the lost to act without first CAUSING New Birth -- He is unnable to MOVE them to hear and ENABLE them to act -- to choose UNLESS He first makes them into a born-again Christian.

Your view of him is too small.

In Christ,

Bob

David Michael Harris · May 5, 2005

Originally posted by webdog:
Jesus was/is both fully human and fully God. Did He only have free will as God and not as a man?

If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Jesus was totally free.

Jesus lived the perfect human life. We do not.
He was perfected through suffering. That is a very interesting statement that needs to be looked into more.

David

David Michael Harris · May 5, 2005

Originally posted by icthus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But the Arminian view is that the LOST person CHOOSES as Romans 10 states RESULTING in Salvation - RESULTING in the NEW birth, RESULTING in the New Creation.

Read the whole of Romans 10, again.

It does not show the order to be the lost person choosing anything, in fact, Romans 10 expressly teaches Irristable Grace.

a debtor to free Grace
Bro. Dallas

[/QUOTE]"Romans 10 expressly teaches Irristable Grace"

Have you got a special Bible? I don't see this doctrine in this chapter. care to give us the verses? [/QUOTE]Try Matthew 11:27

Icthus, tell me about your coming to Christ in a pm please and I will share mine.

David

David Michael Harris · May 5, 2005

That verse just quoted makes you wonder whether the author of John and Matthew are one and the same person!

All food for thought.

David

Scott J · May 5, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Scott J

... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Faith COMES by HEARING. Rom 10[/QUOTE] ... the Word of God. Is that physical hearing or spiritual hearing? Can one hear without an ear to hear? Who grants that ear to hear?

To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith. Rom 12

Note: "given".

First there is the CONVICTING power of the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

First is the election of God before the foundation of the world.

The unconverted mind is confronted,

True

The Holy Spirit also supernaturally "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" to Christ.

True in a sense. Calvinists do not deny that I am aware of the concept of a general calling but recognize also an effectual calling. The sheep "hear" His voice and follow.

The unconverted mind is supernaturally DRAWN and ENABLED to respond - but is NOT in full agrement with God or His law -- it is ENABLED to choose repentance.

Correct. God quickens the spirit through new birth- regeneration. This results in the willing choice to believe.

The is Christ "STANDING at the DOOR and KNOCKING" Rev 3.

By "contrast" Calvinism pictures it as "CHRIST SUDDENLY INSIDE the house AND OPENING the door"

That appears to be a twisting of both scripture and calvinists beliefs.

You have the wrong model.

Maybe. But it is vastly superior and does a better job of accounting for all of the relevant scriptures and concepts than anything else I have seen.

It is consistent with the whole of scripture. Any system that rests on man making the sovereign choice to believe or not believe cannot escape the fact that a good decision is worthy of merit when compared to a bad decision. If God is respecting a decision of man then he is not acting in grace but rather rewarding merit.

David Michael Harris · May 5, 2005

"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. I have appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last".

One of my favourite chapters in the Bible. John 15

David

Hardsheller · May 5, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Scott J

... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Faith COMES by HEARING. Rom 10

To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith. Rom 12

First there is the CONVICTING power of the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The unconverted mind is confronted,

The Holy Spirit also supernaturally "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" to Christ.

The unconverted mind is supernaturally DRAWN and ENABLED to respond - but is NOT in full agrement with God or His law -- it is ENABLED to choose repentance.

The is Christ "STANDING at the DOOR and KNOCKING" Rev 3.

By "contrast" Calvinism pictures it as "CHRIST SUDDENLY INSIDE the house AND OPENING the door"

You have the wrong model.

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]Talk about a wrong model! Bob, you have taken several texts above out of their original context and bent them to fit your theology.

Romans 10 - Faith comes by Hearing - Yes, but that is not proof that it (faith) comes to all people and is exercised by some and spurned by others.

Romans 12 - Faith is given to every man - It's every person in the Church - Context, Context, Context.

REV 3:20 - Jesus knocking at the door - What is the Context of this whole passage? It's the Backslidden Church! Context, Context, Context.

Now it's easy to see if you ignore the context of scripture how you arrive at your position.

BobRyan · May 5, 2005

Scott J

... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Bob said --

Faith COMES by HEARING. Rom 10

Scott said --

... the Word of God. Is that physical hearing or spiritual hearing?

Well it says "faith COMES by.." so it is PRE-FAITH hearing.

Scott J said --
Can one hear without an ear to hear? Who grants that ear to hear?

I am happy to give God the credit for Drawing ALL mankind for convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement "FIRST".

That is not contrary to the Arminian view.

Rom 12
To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith.

Scott J -

Note: "given".

Yes. God is the one who first GIVES "to EACH ONE" that measure of faith. It is a gift from God no doubt -- but it is unlimited in scope. Given to EACH one! Not to "the FEW". That is to say -- the Romans 12 text does not say "and to JUST the FEW of Matt 7 is given a measure of faith".

But I fully agree with you that even with these unlimited scope views - God is still the first actor.

The point for Romans 10 is that the chapter does not start with vs 10. Rather it sets the context with the claim that FIRST comes "believing" and "Confessing" and THEN comes salvation (the New birth, the born-again new-creation that is IN Christ).

One must choose to have the mind of Christ before they are given the mind of Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 5, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The is Christ "STANDING at the DOOR and KNOCKING" Rev 3.

By "contrast" Calvinism pictures it as "CHRIST SUDDENLY INSIDE the house AND OPENING the door"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott J
That appears to be a twisting of both scripture and calvinists beliefs.

The problem is that that "twist of scripture" is the only way to get it to "fit" Calvinism.

The Arminian view is that Christ is on the OUTSIDE knocking and that the PERSON is on the inside WITHOUT Christ and having a "choice to make".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 5, 2005

Hardhseller said --
REV 3:20 - Jesus knocking at the door - What is the Context of this whole passage? It's the Backslidden Church! Context, Context, Context.

So let me get this straight - you are actually willing to "admit to Rev 3"???

Christ ON THE OUTSIDE and man on the INSIDE having a choice to make??

Did you wake up as an Arminian today?

In Christ,

Bob

Hardsheller · May 6, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hardhseller said --
REV 3:20 - Jesus knocking at the door - What is the Context of this whole passage? It's the Backslidden Church! Context, Context, Context.

So let me get this straight - you are actually willing to "admit to Rev 3"???

Christ ON THE OUTSIDE and man on the INSIDE having a choice to make??

Did you wake up as an Arminian today?

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]Bob,

You really don't read the posts do you?

I have always claimed that man can make a choice. The choice offered in Rev 3.20 is for Christians who are in the Laodicean church to open their hearts and allow Jesus to intimately relate to them again.

BobRyan · May 6, 2005

"again" I ask the question. Do you admit that man is on the INSIDE without Christ and is confronted with a choice which he must make - where Christ is only ON THE OUTSIDE knocking. And WHEN/IF the man opens the door THEN Christ will "come in"??

Your "this text can only be read by first century Laodicean church members" not withstanding.

The point remains - does this condition fit your view of Calvinism? (Regardless of how many ways you strain to limit its application when God says "IF ANYONE" is the real scope)

In Christ,

Bob

Hardsheller · May 6, 2005

Absolutely this fits my view of Calvinism.

When God saves a man, his nature changes. He is now free to choose to sin and free to choose to not sin. Christ gives him that ability - it's part of the parcel and package of Salvation.

The man on the inside of the door is a Christian and he has a choice as to whether to allow Jesus intimate access to his heart.

Scott J · May 6, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Scott J

... though I would argue that no physical time necessarily elapses between the moment of regeneration and the moment of belief.

Bob said --

Faith COMES by HEARING. Rom 10

Scott said --

... the Word of God. Is that physical hearing or spiritual hearing?

Click to expand...

Well it says "faith COMES by.." so it is PRE-FAITH hearing.[/QUOTE] Nice evasion attempt but that wasn't the question. Was it physical hearing or spiritual hearing? The difference is enormous with regard to our disagreement.

But your answer does help my contention that "faith" is predicated on new birth with its "ear to hear" and not the other way around.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Scott J said --
Can one hear without an ear to hear? Who grants that ear to hear?

I am happy to give God the credit for Drawing ALL mankind for convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement "FIRST".[/QUOTE] Again, your evasion is telling.

Who grants the ability to spiritually hear? Where does it come from? Can a deaf person hear regardless of how badly they might want to?

It is obvious that the hearing referred to here that results in faith is not universal. Some have it. Others don't. Why?

Rom 12
To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Scott J -

Note: "given".

Yes. God is the one who first GIVES "to EACH ONE" that measure of faith. It is a gift from God no doubt -- but it is unlimited in scope. Given to EACH one![/QUOTE] Then why aren't "each one" saved?

But I fully agree with you that even with these unlimited scope views - God is still the first actor.

Thanks. But that implies that you think that God can set out to do something an be ineffective at it.

The point for Romans 10 is that the chapter does not start with vs 10. Rather it sets the context with the claim that FIRST comes "believing" and "Confessing" and THEN comes salvation (the New birth, the born-again new-creation that is IN Christ).

"New birth" is part of salvation as are believing and confessing... but they are not quite synonomous terms as you have implied.

One must choose to have the mind of Christ before they are given the mind of Christ.

Can you cite a scripture that specifically says this? Scriptures that use the words "believe" or "faith" are not sufficient as is obvious by the disagreements we have over the meanings.

I would like to see a scripture that says what you said above using a word like "choose" that clearly means that a person independently chooses to have the mind of Christ, to believe, to have faith, etc.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB][/QUOTE]

BobRyan · May 7, 2005

Rev 3 "Behold I stand AT THE DOOR and Knock if anyone HEARS My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL COME IN".

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Absolutely this fits my view of Calvinism.

Wonderfull!

Please show how it is that Calvinism has someone ON THE INSIDE WITHOUT CHRIST -- but able to HEAR and OPEN the door to let Christ COME IN!

Hardsheller says --

When God saves a man, his nature changes. He is now free to choose to sin and free to choose to not sin. Christ gives him that ability - it's part of the parcel and package of Salvation.

So you are saying that with Christ confined to the OUTSIDE -- "He is saved".

You claim that the "Saved state" is man ALONE wihtout Christ on the INSIDE?

True?

You claim that this saved new creation "WITHOUT CHRIST" is now "ABLE" to open the door and LET CHRIST COME into the Life of the believer.

True?

That is "consistent" with your view of Calvinism??

Hardsheller
The man on the inside of the door is a Christian and he has a choice as to whether to allow Jesus intimate access to his heart.

Ok - I was just wanting to verify that you are claiming that the "saved" -- CHRISTIAN is one who is "ALONE" and "WITHOUT CHRIST".

I just never thought I was going to get that from a Calvinist.

I see now that our differences are "huge".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 7, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott said --

... the Word of God. Is that physical hearing or spiritual hearing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob said --
Well it says "faith COMES by.." so it is PRE-FAITH hearing.

Scott J said --

Nice evasion attempt but that wasn't the question. Was it physical hearing or spiritual hearing? The difference is enormous with regard to our disagreement.

But your answer does help my contention that "faith" is predicated on new birth with its "ear to hear" and not the other way around.

Really?

Heb 11 says "WITHOUT faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God".

You have the New Birth happening to the one WITHOUT faith or salvation... then the one who is born again BUT NOT SAVED and NOT a person of faith -- "HEARS" and then "Faith comes" and then "salvation" (that last sequence is actually IN the text by contrast with your assumption that they are FIRST born again).

And you are comfortable with that "born-again but not saved" and "born-again but totally without faith" definition of "born-again"??

Please show that this is the way the Bible describes "Born again".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 7, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott J said --
Can one hear without an ear to hear? Who grants that ear to hear?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob said
I am happy to give God the credit for Drawing ALL mankind for convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement "FIRST".

Scott J --

Again, your evasion is telling.

Who grants the ability to spiritually hear? Where does it come from? Can a deaf person hear regardless of how badly they might want to?

It is obvious that the hearing referred to here that results in faith is not universal. Some have it. Others don't. Why?

When the Bible says "Convict the WORLD of sin" it does not say "some do not hear".

I am perfectly happy to say that the "DRAWING OF ALL MANKIND" to Christ is GOD ENABLING them to hear.

You want to mark that point that God is the one who FIRST acts to enable the hearing. So do I.

And many Calvinists will even bring themselves to "admit" that it is THIS VERY "supernatural DRAWING" that is "enabling" all that total depravity "DISABLES" by way of hearing and ENABLING choice.

So I agree with them -- I just believe that "ALL mankind" is drawn just as the text says.

But "being drawn" is not "being forced" and is not the definition of "born-again".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 7, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One must choose to have the mind of Christ before they are given the mind of Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott said --
Can you cite a scripture that specifically says this? Scriptures that use the words "believe" or "faith" are not sufficient as is obvious by the disagreements we have over the meanings.

I would like to see a scripture that says what you said above using a word like "choose" that clearly means that a person independently chooses to have the mind of Christ, to believe, to have faith, etc.

It is always the easy things that we get asked for.

"God so Loved THE WORLD that HE GAVE... That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Him should not perish"..

"But to AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM TO THEM HE GAVE the right to be called the children of God"

"IF anyone HEARS AND ALS O O

PENS the door THEN I WILL come in" Rev 3.

Having THE MIND OF CHRIST ON THE INSIDE -- can not happen if Christ is LIMITED TO THE OUTSIDE still knocking, still waiting to "come in".

In Christ,

Bob

Hardsheller · May 8, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Rev 3 "Behold I stand AT THE DOOR and Knock if anyone HEARS My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL COME IN".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Absolutely this fits my view of Calvinism.

Wonderfull!

Please show how it is that Calvinism has someone ON THE INSIDE WITHOUT CHRIST -- but able to HEAR and OPEN the door to let Christ COME IN!

Hardsheller says --

When God saves a man, his nature changes. He is now free to choose to sin and free to choose to not sin. Christ gives him that ability - it's part of the parcel and package of Salvation.

Click to expand...

So you are saying that with Christ confined to the OUTSIDE -- "He is saved".

You claim that the "Saved state" is man ALONE wihtout Christ on the INSIDE?

True?

You claim that this saved new creation "WITHOUT CHRIST" is now "ABLE" to open the door and LET CHRIST COME into the Life of the believer.

True?

That is "consistent" with your view of Calvinism??

Hardsheller
The man on the inside of the door is a Christian and he has a choice as to whether to allow Jesus intimate access to his heart.

Click to expand...

Ok - I was just wanting to verify that you are claiming that the "saved" -- CHRISTIAN is one who is "ALONE" and "WITHOUT CHRIST".

I just never thought I was going to get that from a Calvinist.

I see now that our differences are "huge".

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]Bob, You are right. Our differences are huge.

You take scripture and bend it to fit your own theology.

This verse you reference - REV 3:20 - was written to a church in which Christians were terribly backslidden.

Yes, a Christian can push Christ out of his life to the point where Christ has no "intimate" relationship with that person. You've seen this happen. You've also seen Christians repent and enjoy once again an "intimate" relationship with Christ.

If a Christian persists in sinning then he winds up in that position with Christ outside the door of his heart seeking to reestablish the close relationship.

Rev 3:20 has nothing to do with the inital Salvation experience.

Let's let Scripture speak in the context in which it was written.

Did Jesus have free will?

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