Did Jesus have free will?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by icthus:
Your basic understanding is faulty. You simply cannot compare Jesus with Adam. Adam was only human, whereas Jesus Christ is both 100% God and 100% Man. When Satan would have tempted Jesus, he would have done so to the Person Jesus Christ, and not just His "human nature". The Person Jesus Christ, is God-Man. Scripture tells us that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13). As I have already shown, that "temptation" to comit sin, is so done, that the person who is tempted, is hoped will give in. Jesus felt the "force" to do wrong by Satan, when the deceiver made tried to get Jesus to go against what the Godhead already had agreed, will take place. But, there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was ever troubled by what Satan tempted Him with, as we would have been.

He did not have a sinful nature so nothing "in him" desired evil just as nothing "in Adam" desired evil.

And as you say Satan did not simply tempt His human nature -- he tempted Christ to USE His God nature saying "TURN this stone into bread since you are hungry AND you are claiming to be God".

That kind of thing would not even BE a temptation for us because we CAN not be tempted to do -- what we CAN not do.

But for Jesus to rely upon His GOD NATURE while on earth - EVEN to satisfy extreme hunger after 40 days of fasting -- was not in God the Father's perfect will and so EVEN though Jesus WAS really hungry - He CHOOSES not to use His own power as God to turn non-living matter into living "food".

So you are right again - He was tempted on levels entirely above and beyond where we even CAN be tempted (at least on that point).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Bob.
Very good post Amen
Mike

Thanks Mike, This is one of THE big reasons I think this topic is soooo important.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
When Jesus is in the Garden of Gethsemane He prays for the cup to pass from Him - and then adds "not MY will but THY will be done".

In your explanation above He could have said "I CAN not actually seriously consider anything but complete success here because I don't have the ABILITY to fail". The scene is "presented" in scripture as if He is making a hard decision rather than "incapable" or "unnable" to make any "other" choice.

Originally posted by Scott J:

Can you reconcile your argument here with "slain from the foundation of the world"? [/QB]

[/quote]

That brings us full circle - that is how we got here to begin with.

God knows everything to start with - which includes all the life of Christ. So did Jesus have Free will? And does God have Free will?

I conclude that God has free will EVEN though He knows the future and that our "innability to BE God" does not restrict or define free will.

 

[Scott J]

Yes. Jesus had free will. He exercised that free will in accordance with His nature- divine.

When God grants "us all things that pertain to life and godliness" and calls us, we become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:1-4). We then act in accordance with that nature and having faith, we believe.... and no I am not asserting that we possess the divine nature in perfection as Jesus did.

To my friend Wes, please note that nothing leading up to the proclamation of our partaking of the divine nature mentions it being predicated on our choice.

In fact in verse 1, the word "received" or "obtained" is used with reference to faith. According to Robertson's, this translates a word meaning "obtain by lot". IOW's, it was granted us by another without any decision on our part.

[ April 28, 2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by webdog:
I agree. Since we are fully human, this should apply to us then. God foreknew the decisions Jesus would make, but He still had free will. Why does calvinism say then man has no free will to accept Jesus as Lord?

The human nature of Jesus Christ had free will because He was born without sin [2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:19; 2 Peter 2:22]. However, every person born since the fall has a will that is in bondage to sin [John 8:34;Romans 3:23]. We think we have free will but we don't.

However, once man has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of saving faith [Ephesians 2:1-10] our will is freed from bondage to sin and we are able to respond effectually to the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with the last two Calvinist posts here that Jesus DID have free will and I also think God has free will. The foreknowledge of God does not stop that for Him - for Christ or for us.

We are in slavery to sin - until we respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and place our trust in Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

In Christ,

Bob

Reverse your propositions and you will be closer to the truth. Unregenerate man is not only in bondage to sin but is spiritually dead and, therefore, cannot respond until he is made spiritually alive.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I agree with the last two Calvinist posts here that Jesus DID have free will and I also think God has free will. The foreknowledge of God does not stop that for Him - for Christ or for us.

We are in slavery to sin - until we respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and place our trust in Christ.

Care to show from Scripture where it says that Jesus has a "free will" as touching His human nature?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
I agree. Since we are fully human, this should apply to us then. God foreknew the decisions Jesus would make, but He still had free will. Why does calvinism say then man has no free will to accept Jesus as Lord?

The human nature of Jesus Christ had free will because He was born without sin [2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:19; 2 Peter 2:22]. However, every person born since the fall has a will that is in bondage to sin [John 8:34;Romans 3:23]. We think we have free will but we don't.

However, once man has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of saving faith [Ephesians 2:1-10] our will is freed from bondage to sin and we are able to respond effectually to the Gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]Your logic has lost me. What has Jesus being born without sin have anything to do with "free will"? His human nature HAD TO be sinless, or else He would have been a sinner like us, and Himself in need of a Saviour.

What do you mean that our will is in "bondage to sin". Is this in the Bible? Scripture speaks of us being "slaves to sin", but the context shows that it is talking about Christians. It is more correct to say that the will in fallen man is "prone to sin".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by icthus:
Care to show from Scripture where it says that Jesus has a "free will" as touching His human nature?

"IF you are WILLING you can make me whole..." and Jesus said "I AM WILLING be made whole".
Matt 8:2-3

The temptation of Christ in Matt 4 is all about the WILL of Christ and His having to CHOOSE to subject it to the will of the father EVEN though he is dying of hunger (and thirst) at the time.

However getting back to the Calvinist argument - the argument is that SINCE God KNOWS the future -- what choice do WE have. My argument is that this SAME logic binds God the Son - Jesus Christ from having NO free will. It matters not whether you are talking about the human nature or God nature since the only question is "did God know the actions ahead of time".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Reverse your propositions and you will be closer to the truth. Unregenerate man is not only in bondage to sin but is spiritually dead and, therefore, cannot respond until he is made spiritually alive.

You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all the total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[loving2daysyouth]

No one can answer this question: Those who agree with Calvinism, please explain this:

If we are "Pre-saved" what is the point of the judgment?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I agree with the last two Calvinist posts here that Jesus DID have free will and I also think God has free will. The foreknowledge of God does not stop that for Him - for Christ or for us.

We are in slavery to sin - until we respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and place our trust in Christ.

I can almost agree with that post except we are in slavery to sin until the Holy Spirit regenerates us and leaves us free to place our trust in Christ.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
No one can answer this question: Those who agree with Calvinism, please explain this:

If we are "Pre-saved" what is the point of the judgment?

God's righteousness.

Calvinists don't say that God is wrong to judge sinners. In fact, we say that we all should be judged and condemned as sinners. It is only by God's grace and predestined choice of us in Christ that we can be saved.

You are operating from the false premise that everyone deserves an equal chance for salvation. We are affirming the biblical fact that none of us deserve any chance for attaining salvation... and moreover that left to our own sinful will we would never choose biblical salvation.

People who go to hell are operating completely within the scope of their own will and free choices. They are responsible for their sins before a holy God. God does them no injustice when in His grace and mercy He spiritually quickens, draws, and saves others.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

Originally posted by Scott J:
I can almost agree with that post except we are in slavery to sin until the Holy Spirit regenerates us and leaves us free to place our trust in Christ. [/QB]

AS I said to OldRegular

You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all that total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
I almost agree with that. Take out the part about being regenerated and I go for it as the pre-saved condition of man - who is "enabled" by the "DRAWING" of the Holy Spirit.

The "Drawing" is not the same thing as the "New Creation".

#1. The Spirit supernaturally DRAWS and Convicts.
#2. Man is enabled to respond - and some do.
#3. Those that do are made into "a new creation" and receive the "new Birth" with a "new Heart".

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Reverse your propositions and you will be closer to the truth. Unregenerate man is not only in bondage to sin but is spiritually dead and, therefore, cannot respond until he is made spiritually alive.

You have made a bad assumption. You assume that the supernatural drawing of the Holy Spirit "does nothing" to enable all the total depravity DISABLES when it comes to choosing life.

Had you not made that error you would have found that step #1. is "sufficient" for enabling choice - specifically the CHOICE to submit to God.

This is why Romans 10 describes Salvation - the NEW creation coming AFTER that "CHOICE" is made.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

Were they actually given faith? OR, were they given what is essential in the form of knowledge with which to have faith?

If you say they were given the actual faith, then you are saying that God, the Supreme and only living God of the universe has faith to give, and that is counter everything we as Christians believe about God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. Please tell us anything that God would hope for, and identify what you perceive it to be that God cannot see! You could win this one if you can!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

Were they actually given faith? OR, were they given what is essential in the form of knowledge with which to have faith?

If you say they were given the actual faith, then you are saying that God, the Supreme and only living God of the universe has faith to give, and that is counter everything we as Christians believe about God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. Please tell us anything that God would hope for, and identify what you perceive it to be that God cannot see! You could win this one if you can! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest

Please don't accuse me of making statements that I do not make.

To say that God has to have faith before he can give faith is as ridiculous as saying that God has to be a physical being before He could create a physical universe. Scripture plainly teaches that God is Spirit in John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.[/b]

Are you going to deny this Scripture and argue that God must be a physical being in order to create a physical universe?

 

[Wes Outwest]

I have made no assumptions. I simply read Ephesians 2:1-10 which states that those who are dead in trespass and sin are made spiritually alive and given the gift of faith by which they can respond to the Gospel.

Your words, my emphasis! Am I not directly quoting you?

God gave man nothing that He does not have, except a physical body, and infinite everything! He made man in his image with one exception. Since God has nothing to "hope for" and since there is nothing God cannot see. He has no requirement to have faith! Whereas, with our limitations, We must have faith because all we have are promises of what is ahead, that we cannot see!

You are screwing with biblical principles here, not me!