Did Jesus Suffer in Hell? Part 1

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Bluefalcon
Jesus didn't preach to people in hell. That doesn't make any sense. Wayne Grudem has this one right. Jesus preached through Noah to the spirits who are now in hell. Thus Noah was certainly one of the greatest preachers of all time, and no one got saved but his own family. But all those who perished were without excuse, for they all heard the very words of Jesus, and believed not.

By the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, he went and preached to them in the days of Noah. Not to their spirits but to them and probably through Noah.
I agree they are in hell today except the eight souls that were saved.

1 Peter 3:
18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Hell is a place of confinement besides being a place of punishment. You will find where the grave was a hell and also when Jonah was in the belly of the whale he said "out of the belly of hell, cried I". So it is a place where one is confined. Now it could not of been the tomb where Jesus laid for His soul was not in the tomb. I think it was when He was confined to the cross and His hell was the torment He went through for our sins while being confined to the cross. He did not remain there and said "Father I commend my Spirit unto thy hands" and gave up the Ghost to fulfill the scriptures. His body of course went to the tomb but God did not suffer it to see corruption either for He arose the third day as He had promised.
This is my belief about:

Acts: 2

"27": Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

No reason whatsoever to go to the Hell of fire for all are lost down there already. Twice dead and already plucked up by the roots.

 

[Jarthur001]

Because many Calvinists think that things are etched in stone per the secret eternal decree. Pleading for anything is a waste of time to them if something is already ordained to be. -- Herb Evans

Hello Herb,

I do not know for sure, but it seems like maybe you have a mis-understanding about Calvinism. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Let me share a few things.

All Calvinist that I know believe in prayer. Pink wrote a very good book on prayer.

Pink...

Luther was wont to say, "There are three things that go to the making of a successful preacher: supplication, meditation, and tribulation." I know not what elaboration the great Reformer made. But I suppose he meant this: that prayer is necessary to bring the preacher into a suitable frame to handle Divine things and to endue him with Divine power; that meditation on the Word is essential in order to supply him with material for his message; and that tribulation is required as ballast for his vessel, for the minister of the Gospel needs trials to keep him humble, just as the Apostle Paul was given a thorn in the flesh that he might not be unduly exalted by the abundance of the revelations granted to him. Prayer is the appointed means for receiving spiritual communications for the instruction of our people. We must be much with God before we can be fitted to go forth and speak in His name. Paul, in concluding his Epistle to the Colossians, informs them of the faithful intercess ions of Epaphras, one of their ministers, who was away from home visiting Paul. "Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. For I bear him record, that he hath a great zeal for you . . ." (Col. 4:12, 13a). Could such a commendation of you be made to your congregation?

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Fervent_Prayer/fervent_prayer.htm

The best book on prayer..that I know of..John Bunyan/A Discourse Touching Prayer/ writen while in prison..1662
http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Discourse.Touching.Prayer/index.html

Bunyan as I'm sure you know was a Calvinist.

**********************
AS TO THE PASSAGE..PLEASE NOTICE

Job is addressing this feeling that God has left him. He is not talking to God, but rather to his freinds, but in a way Job means God too. And there is nothing Job can do about it. Job feels helpless. This is Job feeling..and in the end what does God say? God agrees with Job near the end of the book.

Job 16

1Then Job answered and said,

2I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all.

3Shall vain words have an end? or what emboldeneth thee that thou answerest?

4I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you.

5But I would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should asswage your grief.

6Though I speak, my grief is not asswaged: and though I forbear, what am I eased?

7But now he hath made me weary: thou hast made desolate all my company.

8And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face.

9He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.

10They have gaped upon me with their mouth; they have smitten me upon the cheek reproachfully; they have gathered themselves together against me.

11God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.

12I was at ease, but he hath broken me asunder: he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.

13His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gali upon the ground.

14He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant.

15I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin, and defiled my horn in the dust.

16My face is foul with weeping, and on my eyelids is the shadow of death;

17Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.

Your text starts here....

18O earth, cover not thou my blood, and let my cry have no place.

19Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.

20My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.

21O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

NOTE..Job is saying in verse 21...why can't we just talk to God as we do our neighbour. Our neighbour we KNOW will hear us. God it seems does not hear my cry.

22When a few years are come, then I shall go the way whence I shall not return.

 

[Herb Evans]

bound]Today Hades tearfully sighs: 'Would that I had not received Him who was born of Mary, for He came to me and destroyed my power; He broke my bronze gates, and being God, delivered the souls I had been holding captive.' O, Lord, glory to your cross and to your holy resurrection.

Herb Evans did all that? Wow!! -- Herb Evans

Early Christians expressed the truths of our faith with allagory... or did they? :saint:

Well the ones that had to do with inspired Scripture did. Are you one of those? -- Herb Evans

PS: I don't think He suffered He entered Triumphant! Amen!

Verse and Chapter? -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Hell is a place of confinement besides being a place of punishment. You will find where the grave was a hell and also when Jonah was in the belly of the whale he said "out of the belly of hell, cried I". So it is a place where one is confined. Now it could not of been the tomb where Jesus laid for His soul was not in the tomb. I think it was when He was confined to the cross and His hell was the torment He went through for our sins while being confined to the cross. He did not remain there and said "Father I commend my Spirit unto thy hands" and gave up the Ghost to fulfill the scriptures. His body of course went to the tomb but God did not suffer it to see corruption either for He arose the third day as He had promised.
quote]

Bob, I like this explanation. -- Herb Evans

 

[bound]

bound]Today Hades tearfully sighs: 'Would that I had not received Him who was born of Mary, for He came to me and destroyed my power; He broke my bronze gates, and being God, delivered the souls I had been holding captive.' O, Lord, glory to your cross and to your holy resurrection.

Herb Evans did all that? Wow!! -- Herb Evans

No Herb Evans didn't do all that but I absolutely 'love' the topic. I believe this is from the perspective of 'death' yeilding up her dead.

Early Christians expressed the truths of our faith with allagory... or did they? :saint:

Well the ones that had to do with inspired Scripture did. Are you one of those? -- Herb Evans

Am I an Early Christian? Of course not it's 2006 AD. :thumbs:

PS: I don't think He suffered He entered Triumphant! Amen!

Verse and Chapter? -- Herb Evans

No verse or chapter, just thinking that God really can't suffer or die. Not in the any sense that might make any sense.

Chalk this one up under 'conjecture'.

 

[Herb Evans]

No Herb Evans didn't do all that but I absolutely 'love' the topic. I believe this is from the perspective of 'death' yeilding up her dead.



Am I an Early Christian? Of course not it's 2006 AD. :thumbs:



No verse or chapter, just thinking that God really can't suffer or die. Not in the any sense that might make any sense.

Chalk this one up under 'conjecture'.

OH! Okay! :sleeping_2: -- Herb Evans

 

[Aaron]

Two things to start with:

1) When Christ said "It is finished," he was alive and breathing, yet no one here would say that he did not have to go ahead and die to make atonement. The "It is finished," argument can't be used to rebut the descent into hell, as it is connected with Christ's death.

2) We're told that Christ tasted death for every man, yet for 2000 years, Christians have been dying. Just what aspect of death was it that Christ tasted to spare us?

 

[Herb Evans]

Aaron]Two things to start with:

1) When Christ said "It is finished," he was alive and breathing, yet no one here would say that he did not have to go ahead and die to make atonement. The "It is finished," argument can't be used to rebut the descent into hell, as it is connected with Christ's death.

Well, if He would have said it after He died, no one would have heard Him. :laugh: But for your info, the suffering for sin for us was finished. -- Herb Evans

2) We're told that Christ tasted death for every man, yet for 2000 years, Christians have been dying. Just what aspect of death was it that Christ tasted to spare us?

Separation from the Father and physical death. My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? -- Herb Evans

 

[Brother Bob]

2) We're told that Christ tasted death for every man, yet for 2000 years, Christians have been dying. Just what aspect of death was it that Christ tasted to spare us?

For those who face the second death before the White Throne Judgement will not have to ask that question. For those who have been redeemed and on their way to heaven in the resurrection, they neither will have to ask that queston.

 

[Aaron]

Well, if He would have said it after He died, no one would have heard Him.

I know this wasn't serious, but I still want to point out that physical death is not a barrier to Christ's communication with us. He was raised from the dead and could have at that point said, "It is finished." Indeed, no one would say that the work of salvation would have been accomplished without His death AND resurrection. So even though many argue against Christ's descent into hell with this passage, no one really believes that His statement "It is finished" means that the work of atonement at that moment was accomplished.

But for your info, the suffering for sin for us was finished.

And His death was not part of that suffering?

Separation from the Father and physical death.

We're obviously not saved from physical death.

What are the "pains of death" in Acts 2:24?

To cut to the chase, Christ tasted the Second Death for every man, which is what I think Brother Bob said in his post above.

 

[Brother Bob]

:thumbs: ..............

 

[Herb Evans]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Well, if He would have said it after He died, no one would have heard Him.

I know this wasn't serious, but I still want to point out that physical death is not a barrier to Christ's communication with us. He was raised from the dead and could have at that point said, "It is finished." Indeed, no one would say that the work of salvation would have been accomplished without His death AND resurrection. So even though many argue against Christ's descent into hell with this passage, no one really believes that His statement "It is finished" means that the work of atonement at that moment was accomplished.

There are no barriers to Christs's communications under any circumstance, but this was Christ's announcement to all that were there, to be recorded for all to read. The O.T. prophecies regarding Christ's suffering and death were fulfilled.-- Herb Evans

But for your info, the suffering for sin for us was finished. -- Herb Evans

And His death was not part of that suffering?

Oh? I did not realize than He was euthanized without pain. I should no longer say that He died for me or that he died in my place or that I should have been on that cross? The shedding of blood was unecessary for the remission of sins?-- Herb Evans

Separation from the Father and physical death. -- Herb Evans

We're obviously not saved from physical death.

Obviously, unless the rapture takes place, and that is covered by His physical death. Nevertheless, we are saved from hell by His death on the cross. Without the shedding of blood is NO remission. And I don't think that means a mere cut. -- Herb Evans

What are the "pains of death" in Acts 2:24?

Why don't you answer your own question, so that we know where you are going with it. You tell me what the following Psalm means. -- Hreb Evans

Psa 116:1 I love the LORD, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications.
Psa 116:2 Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live.
Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psa 116:4 Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul.
Psa 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful.
Psa 116:6 The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me.
Psa 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee.
Psa 116:8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.
Psa 116:9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

To cut to the chase, Christ tasted the Second Death for every man, which is what I think Brother Bob said in his post above.

He indeed did that. But He also died for my sins, and without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. That remission occurs in this life before the second death. There is the first death that castes the sinner into hell that must also be dealt with. If christ did not die for me on the cross, I would go to the first hell when I die. -- Herb Evans

 

[Brother Bob]

The same shedding of blood is for sin, and that is how you escape the second death. The atonement was made for every man

to God, but man must believe (through faith), to receive that blood in this life, and that is what delivers him from death unto

life, now inwardly and the creature itself shall be delivered ALSO from the bondage of corruption unto a lively hope in Christ.

That ALSO, is talking about the soul, already being delivered from the dead state of sin.

My soul groaneth within, waiting for the redeemption of my body. (in the resurrection).

If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead be in you, it shall also quicken your mortal body.(in the resurrection)!

 

[Aaron]

He indeed did [taste the Second Death for every man].

Then you agree He descended into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now concerning the pains of death. These are not physical pains. The sting of death is sin. A man who dies in his sin is not afraid of the physical pains of death. Indeed, many an unrighteous man enjoys a painfree, and peaceful physical death. The pains of death are the pains that come afterward. It is a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

This is what Christ suffered for us.

 

[Brother Bob]

Now concerning the pains of death. These are not physical pains. The sting of death is sin. A man who dies in his sin is not afraid of the physical pains of death. Indeed, many an unrighteous man enjoys a painfree, and peaceful physical death. The pains of death are the pains that come afterward. It is a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

How do you know what a man feels in physical death? Have you ever died a physical death? Why testify to something you don't know nothing whatsoever about? Why do you think Jesus sweat as great drops of blood?

Why testify to something that everyone alive knows you don't know anything about and I wonder why you seem to say you know? Bible teaches there is a "sting" to death. Also, it is the unknown. Even a bug tries to escape death, just try and step on it and watch it run.

Because He tasted death for every man does not mean He went down into the Lake of Fire. jeepers,

 

[saturneptune]

Hello Brother Bob,
It is good to see you. One thing for sure, none of us know what it feels like to experience death. It is very hard to believe those stories one hears about those who had left their body and come back.

 

[Herb Evans]

Bro Herb,
When a man dies does it take a long time or short time to get to his final resting place? There was MUCH going on in those three days and three nites in the heart of the earth. IF the verse in Acts 2 is scripture then like it lump it or whatever His soul went to hell, else how could he say that his soul would NOT REMAIN there? Just as it states His body would not see corruption. But deny the scriptures we cannot eh? Acts 2 is inspired is it not? As for direct statement, the time to yield up His soul came AFTER death, eh? The gospel includes the death burial and resurrection as well, eh? -- Carroll

Bro. Carroll,
He did not use the word "REMAIN," the word "leave" was used. Whether in English or Greek, Acts 2 does not mean what you interpret it as. When I was at the ZOO, I did not leave my children in the Lion's cage. I did not put my cvhildren in the Lion's cage any more than the Father put Jesus in hell fire. -- Herb Evans

Bro Herb,

For it to "remain" it had to GO there. Here again is the word.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Unless you are consigning Davids soul to hell then the verse is speaking of Jesus or I'll guess the Holy One is Jesus. The sacrifice for sin was BURNT. Of course I don't understand it fully however I'm sure you don't either, in Greek or english. --Carroll

But Bro. Carroll, the Bible word is not "remain," either in English or Greek. That is your word! -If your wife would "leave" you, she would "abandon" you. If you were not left, you were not abandoned. --Herb Evans

Bro. Herb

My point was His soul was IN hell and didn't stay there. Here is another verse concerning the first passover lamb that I found Bro.

Exod 12: 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Our Passover was roast with fire as well. -- Carroll

You fellows seem determined to fry (roast) Jesus in hellfire. Was Jesus also cut apart and eaten? -- herb Evans

Bro. Herb,

Leave: LEAVE, v.t. pret. and pp. left. [Gr. Let in English has the sense both of permit and of hinder. The most prominent significations of leave, are to stop or forbear, and to withdraw.]

1. To withdraw or depart from; to quit for a longer or shorter time indefinitely, or for perpetuity. We left Cowes on our return to the United States, May 10, 1825. We leave home for a day or a year. The fever leaves the patient daily at a certain hour. The secretary has left the business of his office with his first clerk. A man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife. Gen. 2.

2. To forsake; to desert; to abandon; to relinquish. We have left all and followed thee. Mark 10.

3. To suffer to remain; not to take or remove. Let no man leave of it till the morning. Ex. 16.

4. To have remaining at death; as, to leave a good name.

5. To commit or trust to, as a deposit; or to suffer to remain. I left thepapers in the care of the consul.

6. To bequeath; to give by will. The deceased has left his lands to his sons, but he has left a legacy to his only daughter.

7. To permit without interposition. Of this, he leaves the readerto judge.

8. To cease to do; to desist from; to forbear. Let us return, lest my father leave caring for the asses and take thought forus. 1Sam. 9.

9. To refer; to commit for decision.To be left to one's self, to be deserted or forsaken; to be permitted to follow one's own opinions or desires.To leave off, to desist from; to forbear; as, to leave off work at six o'clock.

1. To leave off, to cease wearing; as, to leave off a garment.

2. To forsake; as, to leave off an old acquaintance.To leave out, to omit; as, to leave out a word or name in writing.

Bro. Caroll,
I'm proud of you; you gave the dictionary renderings--all of them. You still have the same problem, however. For the word still is not "REMAIN." It is "left" and "leave." As you can see, to dogmatically insist on one of these many definitions, a nuance of English, based on nothing but your own ideas, would be a biased decision.
Now, I already gave you the correct definition, consistent in English and Greek and with your dictionary, i.e., abandon or forsake. God did not forsake or abandon Christ's soul in or to hell. The second consideration is that hell in the O.T. is where everyone, saved or unsaved, went upon death (that has changed in the N.T.). Which hell or which part is the question? The fiery hell or the non-fiery hell. The third consideration is that the word "hell" has no connotation of fire by itself; the context determines that. The fourth consideration is that the word "hell" has its roots in "HOLE", which the Bible renders "PIT." The fifth consideration is that the Greeks will tell you that its etymology is from two words "not seen" or the "unseen" world. The sixth consideration is the Psalmist, who first cited the verse that is repeated in the N.T. Was this Psalmist IN HELL or going to be IN HELL and then taken back out of HELL? The seventh consideration is that some one does not have to be in a certain situation in order to not be abandoned or forsaken in or to that same situation. Jesus did not go in or to hell fire. Jesus did go to the heart of the earth for three days and three nights in and to paradise.-- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

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Then you agree He descended into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No, in does not say that he descended into the lake of fire, you have created a circle to argue. Whatever He descended into was in the past and not the future. Your time line is messed up. -- Herb Evans

Now concerning the pains of death. These are not physical pains. The sting of death is sin. A man who dies in his sin is not afraid of the physical pains of death. Indeed, many an unrighteous man enjoys a painfree, and peaceful physical death. The pains of death are the pains that come afterward. It is a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

This is what Christ suffered for us.

Seems to me that the pains of death happened at death. It does not say the pains "AFTER" death. I guess the eternal pain of an eternal being having been separated from the Father at His death does not enter into this? You did not address the Psalm in regard to the pains of hell. -- Herb Evans

 

[Aaron]

How do you know what a man feels in physical death?

The Holy Spirit told me. For there are no pains in their death; And their body is fat. Ps. 73:4 (NASB)

Have you ever died a physical death?

Obviously not.

Why testify to something you don't know nothing whatsoever about?

The Holy Spirit is usually a reliable witness.

Why do you think Jesus sweat as great drops of blood?

Because He feared, but He did not fear what men can do to the body. Neither should we. He feared, as He told us to fear, Him who could destroy both the body and soul in hell. Matt. 10:28

Bible teaches there is a "sting" to death.

Yes, as I mentioned in a previous post.

Also, it is the unknown.

I think we're told plainly that the sting of death is sin.

Even a bug tries to escape death, just try and step on it and watch it run.

I'm not concerned with bugs.

Because He tasted death for every man does not mean He went down into the Lake of Fire. jeepers,

What is the Second Death?

 

[Aaron]

No, in does not say that he descended into the lake of fire, you have created a circle to argue. Whatever He descended into was in the past and not the future. Your time line is messed up. -- Herb Evans

The concept of time is a source of confusion for a lot of people. Without going into a lot of detail about it, let's just say that time only exists in this life. It's impossible to imagine, but this I know, life in heaven or death in hell is not a 3-D, moment-by-moment experience. You err in thinking that what we experience as time in this temporal existence is anything like the experiences in the world of spirits. That mistake also accounts for a lot of the wild speculations and artificial divisions between hades and gehenna, heaven and Abraham's bosom, and the like.

Christ did not die as a righteous man. He died as a cursed sinner. He therefore suffered the pains of death so that I won't have to. Now many saints have suffered painful and agonizing physical deaths. The is no way to say that the pains tasted for me were the physical ones, but the spiritual ones. O, Death! Where is thy sting?

Seems to me that the pains of death happened at death. It does not say the pains "AFTER" death. I guess the eternal pain of an eternal being having been separated from the Father at His death does not enter into this? You did not address the Psalm in regard to the pains of hell. -- Herb Evans

You need to learn more about what the Scriptures teach of death.