Did Jesus Suffer in Hell? Part 1

[Brother Bob]

What is the Second Death?

Its what happens to you if you don't are not saved by the blood of Jesus.
if I save you from a train running over you don't mean I have to be run over by the train.

Ps: 73 4 and 5 are talking about the foolish and not whether they have pain in death or not.

Bible says He did suffer in death.

Hbr 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[Herb Evans]

Its what happens to you if you don't are not saved by the blood of Jesus.
if I save you from a train running over you don't mean I have to be run over by the train.

Ps: 73 4 and 5 are talking about the foolish and not whether they have pain in death or not.

Bible says He did suffer in death.

Hbr 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Yes, it would be very hard for Jesus to suffer death without death's suffering. -- Herb Evans

 

[Aaron]

It seems plain to me that the Second Death is going to hell. Don't the Scriptures say, "this is the second death"?

Anyway, it's fruitless to belabor the point. I know this, Christ took ALL the punishment that was reserved for me. Even tasting death, that is, the wrath and fiery indignation of a jealous God.

 

[Herb Evans]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
How do you know what a man feels in physical death?


The Holy Spirit told me. For there are no pains in their death; And their body is fat. Ps. 73:4 (NASB)

Now, that is odd, my Bible says "For there are no BANDS [fetters]in their death: but their strength is firm." -- Psa. 73:4

Check out Isa 58:6, Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?


I guarantee you that there is pain in a lost, hell sent man's death -- Herb Evans

Quote:
Why testify to something you don't know nothing whatsoever about?
The Holy Spirit is usually a reliable witness.

Well, whose Holy Spirit testimony shall we believe? Yours or mine? -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

It seems plain to me that the Second Death is going to hell. Don't the Scriptures say, "this is the second death"?

Anyway, it's fruitless to belabor the point. I know this, Christ took ALL the punishment that was reserved for me. Even tasting death, that is, the wrath and fiery indignation of a jealous God.

Technically, it is a hotter place, the lake of fire. Still, fiery indignation does not necessarily mean hell fire. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Seems to me that the pains of death happened at death. It does not say the pains "AFTER" death. I guess the eternal pain of an eternal having been separated from the Father at His death does not enter into this? You did not address the Psalm in regard to the pains of hell. -- Herb Evans

You need to learn more about what the Scriptures teach of death.

Well, it is obvious that you are not going to try to teach me by not addressing my comment nor answer the question (twice). That sounds a bit like ""Dost thou teach us?"-- Herb Evans

 

[Aaron]

Now, that is odd, my Bible says "For there are no BANDS [fetters]in their death: but their strength is firm." -- Psa. 73:4

Strong's: 2784 chartsubbah khar-tsoob-baw' of uncertain derivation; a fetter; figuratively, a pain:--band.

Brown-Driver-Briggs: (1) bands tightly fastened, Isa. 58:6. (2) pangs, griefs, Psa. 73:4...

 

[Brother Bob]

It is talking about the wicked escaped things that Israel had to suffer and didn't understand why such as "pain bands" or fetters to increase pain at death, such as chopping off one hand and then the other that in no way is talking about the pains or suffering of death itself. They were going to break the bones of Jesus to speed up His death but He was already dead. That is what it is talking about in Psa.

 

[Aaron]

Well, it is obvious that you are not going to try to teach me by not addressing my comment nor answer the question (twice). That sounds a bit like ""Dost thou teach us?"-- Herb Evans

Often when David was writing, he was writing not only of himself, but of Christ. Peter, in his address in Acts 2, bears this this out. So it's obvious that the rigidly literal reading is not the full message of the text, and neither is its scope limited by the imperfect knowledge of either David nor the entire Hebrew nation as it existed under a ministration of death.

The Psalm's true scope and meaning is enlightened for us in the New Testament, so I will focus more on what the NT teaches are the pains of death.

My point in getting involved was to expose the weaknesses in your arguments against the idea of Christ descending to hell. And that I did.

 

[Brother Bob]

Explain why Christ would have to go to hell? They were all lost.

It is talking about the wicked escaped things that Israel had to suffer and didn't understand why such as "pain bands" or fetters to increase pain at death, such as chopping off one hand and then the other that in no way is talking about the pains or suffering of death itself. They were going to break the bones of Jesus to speed up His death but He was already dead. That is what it is talking about in Psa.

 

[Aaron]

It is talking about the wicked escaped things that Israel had to suffer and didn't understand why such as "pain bands" or fetters to increase pain at death, such as chopping off one hand and then the other that in no way is talking about the pains or suffering of death itself. They were going to break the bones of Jesus to speed up His death but He was already dead. That is what it is talking about in Psa.

I disagree. So does Spurgeon (and just about every other commentator on the Psalm).

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/TreasuryofDavid/tod.cgi?book=ps&chapter=073&verse=004

 

[Brother Bob]

I disagree. So does Spurgeon (and just about every other commentator on the Psalm).

Calvin too I suppose but there are several diffinitions to the word band in Hebrew and you picked the one of pain but not that it was a "band to cause pain". chartsubbah
khar-tsoob-baw'
of uncertain derivation; a fetter; figuratively, a pain:--band.

If you keep searching out "band" Aaron, you will find that pain and band go together.


I don't understand what that has to do with Jesus suffering the pain of death when the Bible plainly says He did? You think it was just a pleasure for Him or what?

 

[Herb Evans]

Often when David was writing, he was writing not only of himself, but of Christ.

I can agree with that. So, did David also go to hell fire? -- Hreb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Strong's: 2784 chartsubbah khar-tsoob-baw' of uncertain derivation; a fetter; figuratively, a pain:--band.

Brown-Driver-Briggs: (1) bands tightly fastened, Isa. 58:6. (2) pangs, griefs, Psa. 73:4...

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?Isa 58:6 KJB

Is not this kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Isa 58:6 NIV

Seems like pains, pangs, and griefs are missing here??? -- Herb Evans :love2:

 

[MB]

Hi Herb;
I can't see why anyone would disagree that Jesus paid hell for our sins. The wages of sin is death but spiritual death and spiritual flames are more than just physcial. Studying the death of Christ really had an effect on me. Christ didn't cry out until he cried;
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

To me this would be much more painful than death or flames. To be forsaken by God. To be seperated from Him would be much worse than any thing that any of us can imagine. With out God, there is no Love, no comforter, no joy, no pleasure in life, no blessings, no friends. All there is is a lonelyness like no other and the knowledge that you have no one to blame but your self. You're not only forsaken by God but, also by all else. You won't even have consoling companions in the same perdicament. Just a constant reminder that you have, what you deserve.
Flames are bareable when compared to outer darkness with weeping and nashing of teeth. Maybe this is just me and my fear of being alone.
Even as a lost sinner while alive we are not completely with out God. God blesses even the sinners of the world. They just aren't aware of Him. or they refuse to accept Him. Many don't realize what they will be missing until it's no longer there for them. When it's too late, believe me you'll know it. When it's too late it'll hurt like nothing else can.
MB

 

[Aaron]

I don't understand what that has to do with Jesus suffering the pain of death when the Bible plainly says He did? You think it was just a pleasure for Him or what?

You asked me how I knew some wicked people die peaceful, painfree deaths.

 

[Brother Bob]

You asked me how I knew some wicked people die peaceful, painfree deaths.

This is a "unknown" and no way you can know such a thing. You are not the one who died.

Scripture says it will come to past that death is swallowed up in victory THEN will come to past the saying "Oh death, where is thy sting, oh grave where is thy victory."

My Bible teaches me there is a "sting" of death. If somehow you can remove it, good luck,

 

[Aaron]

I can agree with that. So, did David also go to hell fire? -- Hreb Evans

Please. The things that David suffered in the flesh were types and shadows of spiritual truths concerning Christ. God never forsook David, even though according to what David could see his enemies were prevailing. Also, many martyrs appear to be forsaken by God when they suffer, but they aren't forsaken. My God, my God! Why hast thou forsaken me finds it's ultimate fulfillment in a spiritual truth concerning Christ.

The sorrows of death and pains of hell find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ, not in the carnal experiences and puerile understanding of David.

 

[Aaron]

This is a "unknown" and no way you can know such a thing.

And so I refer you again to Psalm 73:4.

You are not the one who died.

Obviously, but I know what is feared in death.

My Bible teaches me there is a "sting" of death. If somehow you can remove it, good luck,

Your Bible also teaches you that the sting of death is sin. When sin is removed, the sting is gone. Have your sins been washed away? Do you have faith that Christ will present you holy and blameless to His Father? Then for you there is nothing more to fear in death. There is no more sting.

 

[Aaron]

Hi Herb;
I can't see why anyone would disagree that Jesus paid hell for our sins. The wages of sin is death but spiritual death and spiritual flames are more than just physcial. Studying the death of Christ really had an effect on me. Christ didn't cry out until he cried;
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

To me this would be much more painful than death or flames. To be forsaken by God. To be seperated from Him would be much worse than any thing that any of us can imagine. With out God, there is no Love, no comforter, no joy, no pleasure in life, no blessings, no friends. All there is is a lonelyness like no other and the knowledge that you have no one to blame but your self. You're not only forsaken by God but, also by all else. You won't even have consoling companions in the same perdicament. Just a constant reminder that you have, what you deserve.
Flames are bareable when compared to outer darkness with weeping and nashing of teeth. Maybe this is just me and my fear of being alone.
Even as a lost sinner while alive we are not completely with out God. God blesses even the sinners of the world. They just aren't aware of Him. or they refuse to accept Him. Many don't realize what they will be missing until it's no longer there for them. When it's too late, believe me you'll know it. When it's too late it'll hurt like nothing else can.
MB

Here is one who understands the pains of death. Of course, the "lake of fire" is not a literal physical fire. It is the wrath and fiery indignation of a righteous God. But what else here on earth can be likened to it?