Originally posted by Stephen III:
2.) Most people are illiterate. (agree or disagree?
Absolutely not. In the society at that time, people were highly educatied. When Alexander the Great conquered the region he demanded that the Greek language become the universal language of the Kingdom. Notice that the Bible is written in Koine (common) Greek even though the empire is under Roman rule. It was mandatory under Alexander's rule that everyone learn Greek. Even the slaves knew Greek. This was not an illiterate society. The reason that Paul stood on the stairway and spoke to the Jews in their own language (Hebrew) was to gain their attention and show to them that he was a Jew. Notice that the capain of the guard did not understand him. But Greek he did understand, even though he was a Roman. It was universal. Everyone not only understood it, but could read and write--better than their own Roman language.
3.) The "true believers" know scripture when they hear it. (note I said hear it. Agree or Disagree?)
Of course they did. They heard straight from the Apostle's mouths who taught them. Do you think that the Apostles didn't know what was Scripture and what was not. Second Peter clearly reveals to us that Peter knew which writings were Scripture.
Would you have us to believe that the Apostles were dummies not knowing what they were dummies. Look up 2Tim.2:2. Paul taught Timothy. Timothy taught faithful men who would in turn teach other faithful men. The Scriptures would thus be preserved. The Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. The early believers had every to do with it.
4.) Their exists a need within this early Christian community to definitively state that some of these books circulating _The Didache, The shepherd of Hermas,etc. while very inspiring are not the Inspired Word of God. - Remember also that some of what was ultimately included did not originate from followers of Christ who actually were witnesses of Christ! (agree or Dis?)
The need was met by the Apostles, and those whom the Apostles taught. Many of the church fathers went of into heresy. 1John 2:19 confirms this.
5.) The teachers and shepherds of the Churches are who are responsible for guiding their newly developing flocks, and they have the most ready available access to the letters circulating between themselves and their counterparts. (agree or Dis.?)
Acts 14:21-28 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to
Lystra, and to
Iconium, and
Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had
ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
24 And after they had passed throughout
Pisidia, they came to
Pamphylia.
25,And when they had preached the word in
Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to
Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.
Are you acquainted with the teachings of these teachers and shephers that Paul appointed in each of the churches that he established on his missionary churches?
What conclusions can then be made from these?
The conclusion is that these believers faithfully kept the words and copies of the letters that Paul had given them. They did have their own scribes.
The fable that the cream just rose to the top and the books just seperated themselves without the agent of man, that is in the form of councils of these shepherds, is beyond the scope of reason. God used mankind in the form of a virgin to bring the physical Word of God and He used mankind to authoritatively deliver the written and spoken Word of God. It seems some will resort to any illogic in denying this as vain attempt to support their prideful agenda.
Yes God used mankind in bringing the Word of God into this world. God also used a virgin to bring the Son of God into this world. What on earth this has to do with the perpetual virginity of Mary man will never know, and what it has to do with the family of Jesus man will never know. Who is the one that is being illogical here??
That it was the Catholic Church councils that declared these books as the canon of the Bible is a matter of religious and secular history. The fact is historical. And another historical fact is that N
NE countered these claims for probably the first 2000 years!
This is not a matter of historical and secular history. It is a matter of Catholic assumption. I have already explained this matter to you above. The Apostles were not stupid! They didn't need the Catholic Church's approval to know which books were inspired. They were the ones that were inspired by the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church. How arrogant the Catholic Church is!!
This, I think is Carson's point. We were dependent on the early councils of the Catholic Church -just to authoritatively define scripture. And it is was this same authority; these Shepherds of the church with the teaching of the apostles "still ringing in their ears", that promoted and accepted the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity.
Carson's point is completely out of line, and is plain ridiculous. Any fool can see that the book he used is completely contrary to Scripture and presents a fable and not history. The early church would be able to see right through that. If the Catholic Church is so naive and simple that it cannot, then I feel sorry for it. They don't seem to have a good working knowledge of the Bible and don't know what is Scripture and what is not in the first place. Get your head out of the church fathers and more into the Bible, and you will have far less problems.
On the point of why Catholics hold this teaching so dearly: My take is that we look at Mary as the NT fulfillment of the OT Ark of the Covenant, the God- carrier. Remember how any no one was allowed to touch it? Death was the consequence for even accidentally touching it!
Mary was the God-carrier of the NT, the body is a temple of the Spirit. In the case of Mary this was a pure and spotless temple, and as the place that housed God it would remain pure and spotless. Of course this was all done by the grace of God. And so done as an honor for God. I'm sure some Protestant will try to twist this, but it really derives from the fact that God dwelt here and this place by the grace of God, could not and would not be defiled.
That is pure allegorization. When you fall into that trap you can make black, white; and white, black. You can make the Bible say anything you want to. That is why Brother Ed denies that a thousand years in Revelation 20 doesn't mean a thousand years even though a thousand years is mentioned at least three times in two verses. Allegorize it. Deny it. Do whatever you want with it. Be like the J.W.'s. Allegorize the resurrection. Say that Christ only rose "in Spirit." That his resurrection was not a bodily resurrection--will you do that too?
DHK
