Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

[OldRegular]

Neither do your beliefs seem to be similar to mine.
You also deny being a Calvinist.

What does that leave?

As Darrell suggested, perhaps: Roman Catholic??

Give yourself three demerits for calling someone a name! Then give yourself three more for abusing your position as moderator!

 

[OldRegular]

Here you declared you had tendencies that way:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1878136&postcount=17

The only belief I ever had that might be associated with Arminianism was I thought man had to respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit consistent with the following Scripture:

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Of course that Scripture certainly taught me that the so-called pre-trib-rapture was false. I still believe that man must respond in faith to the drawing of the Holy Spirit but that response is preceded by the new birth or regeneration or spiritual resurrection and the gift of faith, consistent with the following Scripture:

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:3-7
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] In conversion the regenerate man exercises the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God.

 

[Iconoclast]

He doesn't call Calypsos a heretic. He calls himself that. He is pretending to Be Caly who calls him(Icon) a heretic. He even call himself Caly4 in the post you quoted. Icon never called Calypsis4 a heretic.

*why would "free will" have bearing on a pre-trib view anyway? MacArthur is a believer in election and holds to the dispensational view. Not sure why that would be a factor in this debate???

* as far as the humor goes. It was really hard to do on forum like this. If face to face, I have no doubt we all would have picked up on Icon's humor. Unfortunately, tone and facial expression is absent online.

Hello Brother,

Glad you can read with comprehension and were able to jump in and provide clarity. You can see that some people just do not understand even when you walk them through it:laugh::laugh:
Some have a sinful agenda and as it is exposed they rage against the truth!

 

[revmwc]

Hello Brother,

Glad you can read with comprehension and were able to jump in and provide clarity. You can see that some people just do not understand even when you walk them through it:laugh::laugh:
Some have a sinful agenda and as it is exposed they rage against the truth!

So why did you decide to highjack the OP with all this?

 

[Iconoclast]

Then post where Jesus Christ taught the pre-trib-"snatching away" of HIS Bride and while you are at it show where Jesus Christ taught that HIS Bride was a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel!

You avoid because you cannot defend your false doctrine!

Yes exactly correct O.R......you have probably forgotten more then these will ever know.
Not one can answer to jn 5 or jn 6 so they seek to put you down rather than seek truth.:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

So why did you decide to highjack the OP with all this?

I was answering the op...your friends DHK and cal4 took it elsewhere, and you mis read the whole situation also with your previous post.
pay attention ...I will recap it for you

 

[OldRegular]

Yes exactly correct O.R......you have probably forgotten more then these will ever know.
Not one can answer to jn 5 or jn 6 so they seek to put you down rather than seek truth.:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

The sad part is these people are missing so much of what GOD has to say to them!

 

[revmwc]

Yes exactly correct O.R......you have probably forgotten more then these will ever know.
Not one can answer to jn 5 or jn 6 so they seek to put you down rather than seek truth.:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" sounds like a promise to all believers to me.

Don't forget you need to be able to show where He kept just this church from the time of tribulation as the Greek says. Because we see that time come here, Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Back to the verse for this thread 1 Thessalonians 1:10 10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Jesus promised it and Paul said we are saved and delivered from the wrath to come.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I didn't see that post

.

really....as moderator you did not see "that post".....but that did not stop you from interrupting the conversation and injecting your usual strawmen about Catholics, and kjo, and whatever else you think of....

oh...so we are to suppose you did not see cal4 in post 133 repeat his violation right here;

I did not throw in the towel. Once I discovered what OR and iconoclast were, scripturally speaking, I put an end to it according to Titus 3:10. They've had more than the limit of a 2nd admonition.

The utter mockery and lack of respect for our moderator reveals what kind of spirit they are of.

He repeats his violation after you claim he pm you with an apology:thumbsup:

Yes...you are really objective:thumbsup:

But this is what I did see.
Posted by Icon:

You lack the ability to see as your agenda blinds you...McCree saw it very clearly, walks you through it and you still pretend like you do not understand...so much for your ethic.

That doesn't sound like a facetious post to me. It sounds serious, and that is the way I took it.

you misunderstood it as you do 9 times out of ten. If you claim you did not see post 111.....you had nothing to say as you did not know what you were talking about.

BTW. Cal sent me a pm with an apology for calling you a heretic not realizing it was against the rules

.

really......and yet he repeats it in post 133 and you say nothing....very impressive.

Will I get one from you?

McCree has answered you on this already.......if anyone should apologize it is you for your false attack and bearing false witness and your foolish , ill informed posting.

However.... I do not need it as you do not fool me at all. You have an anti-cal agenda that has been exposed in these last few months and your posts are becoming unglued.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calypsis4

Right. I am waiting to see if this will happen.

see if what will happen? you might actually try and answer what you were asked....or that you will stop breaking bb rules by calling those you cannot answer heretics?

But you nailed it, sir:[/COLOR] "Joh 1:12 But as many as received him..."

How on earth can someone receive Jesus without accepting him.

It happens by new birth, jn 3...read about it.

Hey, I am new here and still learning the ropes but what he said is just about the dumbest argument I have ever seen.

well...if you want to see a really "dumb" argument, read your own post!
you like your buddy DHK tries to slip in jn 1:12 as if this will help you, however...most of us read vs 12 and 13 together.....sorry if that disturbs you as it shows how DUMB your statement is;

13 Which were born, not of blood,

nor of the will of the flesh,

nor of the will of man,

but of God.

Real Christians are made accepted in the beloved.....by God, of God, by new birth.....not by mans will, or mans accepting anything.....maybe you should consider that before you offer clown like posts as if we need to be amused but your evasion of truth and grandstanding...

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


now...lets see who made that really dumb post

maybe it was the person who boasted he was going to answer everything politely, then 1 page later was calling everyone heretic.....I think it was him.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmwc

Hope you enjoyed the recap and now you can see what has happened here...now back to the op

Ah yes....the church of Philadelphia...I knew this would be coming when you tried the rev 4 ...must be the rapture also...claim...lets look

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" sounds like a promise to all believers to me.

While it was written to this church.... it is in principle to be applied to all like minded brethren.....All believers are delivered from the wrath to come...in Jesus as He is our propitiation.
If you consider the rapture to be the last day then this will be fully realized...

just think it out.... there is nothing here or 1thess 5:9 that would not be true if it is referring to the eternal judgment...second death.

premill writers force this great tribulation idea into texts where it does not belong.

by the way...when you mention the apostle john in rev 4....most premill will try and claim the "church" is no longer mentioned after this [rev4-19]to try and support the premill rapture is in view

Don't forget you need to be able to show where He kept just this church from the time of tribulation as the Greek says. Because we see that time come here, Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I do not think you can just jump out of rev 3 into rev 6 so easily....not if you want to deal with all the issues...rev 6 can be easily linked to the ot and shown to be fulfilled in the first century.

hos10;8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.


zeph1
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Back to the verse for this thread 1 Thessalonians 1:10 10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Jesus promised it and Paul said we are saved and delivered from the wrath to come.[/

QUOTE]

we are delivered from the second death...the wrath to come

 

[Iconoclast]

The sad part is these people are missing so much of what GOD has to say to them!

yes...however...these few might miss it...but many others will see the truth.

if they step away from the prophect experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

 

[revmwc]

yes...however...these few might miss it...but many others will see the truth.

if they step away from the prophect experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

Each verse perfectly shows the Pre-Trib rapture for those who have an open mind and are seeking for the Lord to reveal to them the truths of Scripture.

I've been a believer for 52 years and have studied the word, heard both sides and the Spirit guided me to the Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view. It fits without having to twist teaching to make it fit.

For the amil view you must twist 1 Thessaloninas 4:16-17
16"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

and add for the amil view to fit what John says in Revelation 20:11-15
11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

While skipping over Revelation 6:17
And skipping Revelation 7-19.

Then you would need to also skip
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

You have to exclude where Jesus shows John the 1000 period in verses 5 and 7, for the amil view you must exclude the 1000 year kingdom.

 

[revmwc]

yes...however...these few might miss it...but many others will see the truth.

if they step away from the prophect experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

contd.

Now for the Pre-Trib view to work you need to understand
1 Thessalonians as exactly what Paul says a harpazo, a snatching or catching away.
1 Corinthians 15:52-58,
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."

Both show a snatching away of the Church by Christ, the Corinthians passage shows how there is a mystery which others had not seen how we will be changed when we are snatched away. Nothing skipped.

Twice Paul use the word BEMA for the believer facing Christ,

Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10-11,
10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

For the amil view to work we must place the BEMA seat judgment at this point:

Revelation 20:11-15,

11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Yet we see no believers at the Great White Throne in fact Revelation 20 shows just the opposite.

 

[revmwc]

The Pre-Trib view shows:

The 24 elders crowned in Revelation 4 and representing the church as Matthew Henry taught.
1st Corinthians 3:11-15,

11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You see once a person has their foundation in Jesus by Grace through Faith they begin to build rewards. Those rewards are based upon their works or lack there of for Christ. The only place we see anything resembling Gold silver and precious stones being given to the church would be Revelation 4 with the elders crowned, it fits. The Amil view contains no such place where this occurs.

We see that must be explained for the amil view to work,

Revelation 19:7-10,
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Now where has the Bride been during the events of chapters 6-19. Jewish weddings had the bride coming to the Bridegrooms house a week before the wedding and preparing her dress and herself for the marriage. A feast occurred during this time and when the right moment came at the end of the week the marriage vows were taken.

We see this occur perfectly in Revelation 4 and then 19, with the wrath of God occurring on earth with the whole world.

If the Bride was caught up in Revelation 4 and the 7 year period is the last week of Daniels 70 weeks it fits perfectly with a pre-trib rapture. The Amil view can't do that, but scripture is very clear in the marriage of the Bride that is the church and Christ the Bridegroom before He returns in Revelation 19 verses 11-14,

11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Christ returns with His bride in her fine linen clean and white.

Where as a general resurrection as the amil teach can show none of what these passage show.
A general resurrection skips the BEMA seat judgment that the Judgment seat of Christ and it is different from the Great White throne judgment where the rest of the dead come before him after the 1000 years.
The Amil, General Ressurection skips the Marriage of the Lamb to the Bride the Church in Revelation 19 and His then Return to the Earth to conquer the Armies of the world. It skips the Believers seated upon thrones.

Jesus made a Promise in Matthew 19:28,

28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Jesus Promise was yet again seen in Luke 22:29-30,
29 "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

There would be a physical Kingdom and throne involving Israel, Jesus made it very clear and Revelation 20 shows that Kingdom.
Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The first Resurection is completed at the end of the Tribulation.

The Second and final Resurrection takes place 1000 years later, scripture is clear. The rest of the dead that is those who have died physically and who will die the second death that is eternal separation from God occurs 1000 years after the first is complete.
The Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view bears it all out. The amil view is wanting in all of this.

so after 52 years of salvation and years of study the Pre-TRib and Pre-Mil view for me are born out by scripture, the Amil view is wanting.

 

[PreachTony]

The Pre-Trib view shows:

The 24 elders crowned in Revelation 4 and representing the church as Matthew Henry taught.
1st Corinthians 3:11-15,

11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You see once a person has their foundation in Jesus by Grace through Faith they begin to build rewards. Those rewards are based upon their works or lack there of for Christ. The only place we see anything resembling Gold silver and precious stones being given to the church would be Revelation 4 with the elders crowned, it fits. The Amil view contains no such place where this occurs.

You are once again applying a literalist interpretation to an apocalyptic book. Otherwise you have to say that Satan is indeed a large red dragon, and that a woman was actually given the wings of an eagle to escape the dragon.

If the Bride was caught up in Revelation 4 and the 7 year period is the last week of Daniels 70 weeks it fits perfectly with a pre-trib rapture. The Amil view can't do that, but scripture is very clear in the marriage of the Bride that is the church and Christ the Bridegroom before He returns in Revelation 19 verses 11-14,

11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

For this to fit, you have to insert the dreaded "unspecified period of time" into Daniel's 70 Weeks. When Israel was exiled to Babylon and God told them it would be for 70 years, what if God didn't free them until 200 years later, but then God said "The first 20 years and the last 50 years made up the 70 I told you about. The bit in the middle was an unspecified period of time so I could deal with other things. I got you out in 70 years, just like I said. You just cannot count the extra 130 years in the middle."

 

[revmwc]

You are once again applying a literalist interpretation to an apocalyptic book. Otherwise you have to say that Satan is indeed a large red dragon, and that a woman was actually given the wings of an eagle to escape the dragon.


For this to fit, you have to insert the dreaded "unspecified period of time" into Daniel's 70 Weeks. When Israel was exiled to Babylon and God told them it would be for 70 years, what if God didn't free them until 200 years later, but then God said "The first 20 years and the last 50 years made up the 70 I told you about. The bit in the middle was an unspecified period of time so I could deal with other things. I got you out in 70 years, just like I said. You just cannot count the extra 130 years in the middle."

In Apocalyptic Literature you need to understand what the Believers in A.D. 90's would believe they saw the Emperors as the beast and the dragon as satan, therefore they understood that the beast was a literal Emperor. The heads of the dragon as John described were literal nations that made up the Emporer's realm of authority the crowns were those in authority over them. But they would have understood these would be literal leaders over the earth.

They understood the woman was Israel and that her man child that was taken up to Heaven was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. They would have understood the wings of eagles too, for we see,
Isaiah 40:31 "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

By God's strength and protection Israel would escape the attack of the Dragon satan as they understood satan to be the dragon.

The thing is they understood all of it as Prophecy that would be literally fulfilled.

Now to the Daniel portion.

So do you believe Daniel to be liar or Jesus not to be the Messiah?

Daniel 9:27 Daniel saw seventy weeks.

But what does He say about them?

Daniel 9:24-26 Seventy weeks were determined for Israel to complete before the Messiah would come and reign in His kingdom.

So if those are literal weeks and then Jesus would have come as they were returning to the Land. That didn't happen.

The Messiah would come when 7 + 3 score and 2 weeks had occurred after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. That would be 69 weeks.

If the weeks equal 7 years then 69 weeks would equal 483 years and Messiah would come and be cut off.

so if Jesus is and He is the true Savior and Messiah He came exactly 483 years after the decree to rebuild the city and He was cut off. 62 weeks so 7 weeks 49 years the city would be rebuilt and complete then following 434 years after the completion was the Messiah to be cutoff.

That would leave one week literally unfulfilled.

It happened just as Daniel’s prophecy said it would. Christ came and ministered for three and a half years and then He was cut off, crucified.

We see that week in Revelation 6-19 of Revelation. That is the only place it could occur.

To deny that the 70 weeks are actually weeks of 7 years would make DAniel a liar and someone else the Messiah. Maybe the Messiah was Nehemiah or Ezra as their return to Jerusalem fit the 70 week time period if they were true weeks. Scripture bears it out.

 

[percho]

Question.

Are demons and Satan cast out angels? I am going to assume the answer to be yes, per Rev 12:9.Therefore:

Exactly who is, God allowing, this current creation of the world, see Rom 1:20 and Rom 8:20, to be subjected?

God is in charge however to whom has he subjected this current world?

Does Daniel 10:13 appear to bear this out? !0:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.


Now do the following seem to go together?

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Rev 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I ask, is this current world, this current inhabited earth, presently being subjected to the angels, good and bad? Are the nation currently being deceived?

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. --- Has that taken place? Will it effect more than just the sons of God? --- because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[revmwc]

Question.

Are demons and Satan cast out angels? I am going to assume the answer to be yes, per Rev 12:9.Therefore:

Exactly who is, God allowing, this current creation of the world, see Rom 1:20 and Rom 8:20, to be subjected?

God is in charge however to whom has he subjected this current world?

Does Daniel 10:13 appear to bear this out? !0:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.


Now do the following seem to go together?

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Rev 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I ask, is this current world, this current inhabited earth, presently being subjected to the angels, good and bad? Are the nation currently being deceived?

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. --- Has that taken place? Will it effect more than just the sons of God? --- because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

"because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
That is what is occurring in the tribulation. The judgment is Christ carrying forth the Redemption of the earth and all creation.

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" sounds like a promise to all believers to me.

Don't forget you need to be able to show where He kept just this church from the time of tribulation as the Greek says. Because we see that time come here, Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Back to the verse for this thread 1 Thessalonians 1:10 10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Jesus promised it and Paul said we are saved and delivered from the wrath to come.

Those Churches are in the "THINGS THAT ARE" phase of the Book of Revelation, that you pre-trib-dispensationalism boast about as the key to understanding, and therefore are long gone!

The wrath that Paul is talking about in Romans 5:9 is eternal damnation. Don't you have any idea what Salvation is?

Pathetic!