Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Why do you persist in this?

he has freedom to state what he believes that's why. Does he have to ask you for permission to have his own thoughts.
he has backed it up several times...it is true.

None of us follow Darby, or have read his works.

Oh really......so when Calvinists over and over say to you they have not read Calvin....that does not stop your non stop attack on them personally and your constant moaning about your caricature of Calvinism.

You speak of Calvin and Calvinism more than any Calvinist on here even to a point that you accuse O.R. of being a Calvinist when he says he is not.

If I had a thousand dollars for everytime YOU mention Calvin, or Calvinism...I would not have to drive anymore.

You mention Calvin more than OR mentions Darby....by a landslide...who gives you infractions or censors you for mentioning Calvin or Calvinism over and over???

You have been warned already.

He has not violated any rule even though you have been trying to bait him, and thereby censor him.
Who warns you DHK??? You do worse then any of us do and we do not whine about it.

 

[revmwc]

Jesus Christ did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Matthew did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Mark did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Luke did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

John did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Paul did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Peter did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

James did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not taught in Scripture!

These taught what the list of people you listed teach will you say they didn't teach it either. 1
50's to 350's they taught it.

"Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time."

 

[OldRegular]

These taught what the list of people you listed teach will you say they didn't teach it either. 1
50's to 350's they taught it.

"Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time."

That is about the 6th time you have posted that stuff. My initial comment was I thought Ephraim was Roman Catholic because he talked about penance. I see you have deleted that portion of his remarks. Very Clever!

 

[DHK]

DHK

he has freedom to state what he believes that's why. Does he have to ask you for permission to have his own thoughts.
he has backed it up several times...it is true.

Read the rules. Absolute freedom of speech is NEVER allowed, not even in the U.S. is it allowed. Have you ever boarded a plane. Would you yell: "There's a bomb on the plane," when it is full and in the air? Try jesting about terrorists with the immigration officers. There is no such thing as complete freedom of speech. Read the rules and find out how your freedom of speech is curtailed when it says: "post in grace," and see if you can figure it out.

Oh really......so when Calvinists over and over say to you they have not read Calvin....that does not stop your non stop attack on them personally and your constant moaning about your caricature of Calvinism.

Many of the Calvinists on this board act as if they would wear a big bright button saying: "I am a Calvinist and proud of it." They are proud of the name Calvinist, not ashamed of it.
Accepting my view of Calvinism is another thing of course. This is a debate forum. It is not "succumb to Icon's every idea forum."

You speak of Calvin and Calvinism more than any Calvinist on here even to a point that you accuse O.R. of being a Calvinist when he says he is not.

He defends each and every point of Calvinism. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then...?

If I had a thousand dollars for everytime YOU mention Calvin, or Calvinism...I would not have to drive anymore.

That is up to you.

You mention Calvin more than OR mentions Darby....by a landslide...who gives you infractions or censors you for mentioning Calvin or Calvinism over and over???

Most Calvinists are proud of their name.
We have nothing to do with Darby, don't believe in Darby's doctrines, etc.
Yet we are falsely accused it of almost daily. To be constantly falsely accused is not right.
OR admits to believing in the Doctrines of Grace.

He has not violated any rule even though you have been trying to bait him, and thereby censor him.
Who warns you DHK??? You do worse then any of us do and we do not whine about it.

False accusations and lies are wrong. You guys don't seem to get that.
Surely we live in the last days. Jesus is coming soon as the Bible teaches when even to the righteous wrong is right and right is wrong, and one cannot tell the difference between the two. Amazing!

 

[beameup]

Jesus Christ did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Matthew did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Mark did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Luke did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

John did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Paul did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Peter did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

James did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not taught in Scripture!

Jesus would have no reason to preach to the "church", as the "church" was a mystery revealed later to Paul. Jesus' mission was to preach the available promised Kingdom to his brethren the Hebrews.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Romans 15:8

Peter continued the work of Christ in preaching to his brethren the Hebrews that the promised Kingdom was still available if the Nation of Israel would but repent.
In mid-Acts, the Apostle Paul was chosen following the stoning of Steven. His Gospel of Grace through Faith, without Works was to be preached directly to Gentiles (bypassing Israel altogether).
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Galatians 2:7

The Tribulation is for the "purification" of Israel so that they can fulfill their OT promises of serving Messiah on the earth, from Israel. "Church" to be removed so that Israel can be "purified". Israel is the "focus" of God's work for the Tribulation (ie: 70th Week of Daniel).

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus would have no reason to preach to the "church", as the "church" was a mystery revealed later to Paul. Jesus' mission was to preach the available promised Kingdom to his brethren the Hebrews.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Romans 15:8

Peter continued the work of Christ in preaching to his brethren the Hebrews that the promised Kingdom was still available if the Nation of Israel would but repent.
In mid-Acts, the Apostle Paul was chosen following the stoning of Steven. His Gospel of Grace through Faith, without Works was to be preached directly to Gentiles (bypassing Israel altogether).
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Galatians 2:7

The Tribulation is for the "purification" of Israel so that they can fulfill their OT promises of serving Messiah on the earth, from Israel. "Church" to be removed so that Israel can be "purified". Israel is the "focus" of God's work for the Tribulation (ie: 70th Week of Daniel).

As usual you are wrong on all counts but you do need to learn the difference between those little words TO and OF!

 

[percho]

"because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
That is what is occurring in the tribulation. The judgment is Christ carrying forth the Redemption of the earth and all creation.

I disagree with that taking place during the trib.

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus Christ did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Not during His Ministry, but He certainly did through John:

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The tenor of each letter is for those addressed to overcome. This promise is made to those who keep the Word of the Lord's patience, which is relevant to the Second Coming. He has not returned yet through mercy, because He is unwilling that any should perish.

Events in the First Century did not test everyone on the earth. In fact, in those events, the enemies of God were quite successful.

Matthew did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Nor did Matthew teach about regeneration.

Guess regeneration isn't in Scripture either.

Mark did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Nor did Mark teach about the Eternal State.

Guess the new heavens and earth isn't in Scripture either.

Luke did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Nor did Luke teach about how Bishops are to be chosen.

Guess that too is absent from Scripture.

John did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Some think he did, both explicitly and implicitly:


Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


John 14

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



If we try to say these are not references to the Rapture, and that they only pertain to those people involved, then I guess nothing in Scripture actually pertains to the Church, right?

The ones involved are those alive when the Lord returns. That is not up for debate, unless one wants to deny the Lord's own statement.

In the Rapture those present will be glorified and in that state joined eternally to the Lord.

Paul did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

Of course he did.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The catching away is simply a first century teaching.

And unless we want to suggest, as you do, that a doctrinal view demands specific statement in every relevant verse, we can, when we balance the Word of God...see that the only place the catching away could take place is before the Tribulation.

Oh, but the Tribulation is not in Scripture for you either, is it.

Despite the fact that we have many passages, and an entire Book devoted to those events.

Peter did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

He did not use the word Trinity.

Guess that isn't in Scripture either.

James did not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!

James did not teach about the thousand years separating the First Resurrection (resurrection of Tribulation MArtyrs only) and the general resurrection of the dead just prior to the Great White Throne.

Guess that isn't in Scripture either.

The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not taught in Scripture!

Sure it is.

But if we buy into the theology established by the Catholic Church and never shed by those so-called "Reformed," then I guess it is pretty easy to miss.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by revmwc
"because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
That is what is occurring in the tribulation. The judgment is Christ carrying forth the Redemption of the earth and all creation.

I disagree with that taking place during the trib.

And you are 100% correct "perch"! It is just one more piece of evidence that the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church doctrine is nonsense!

 

[OldRegular]

.............................

 

[Iconoclast]

.............................

Hey OR.....did you just get snatched away....lol before finishing the sentence?

 

[OldRegular]

Hey OR.....did you just get snatched away....lol before finishing the sentence?

Actually I was reporting DC's insulting remarks to see if DHK was fair and balanced but "missed the mark" so had to delete. Tell the truth at my age I could be "snatched out" at any time! GOD is Good!

 

[DHK]

Sure it is.

But if we buy into the theology established by the Catholic Church and never shed by those so-called "Reformed," then I guess it is pretty easy to miss.


God bless.

I can't disagree with this point. The point being made is not attacking any one individual.
"It is." That is, the pre-trib rapture is taught in the Scriptures.
But if one buys into the theology established by the Catholic Church...I guess it is pretty easy to miss.

I don't see an attack on any individual here. It is a point well made.

 

[OldRegular]

I can't disagree with this point. The point being made is not attacking any one individual.
"It is." That is, the pre-trib rapture is taught in the Scriptures.
But if one buys into the theology established by the Catholic Church...I guess it is pretty easy to miss.

I don't see an attack on any individual here. It is a point well made.

So you think it worse to be called a follower of John Nelson Darby than to be called a follower of Roman Catholicism. That is very revealing! But it also shows that you are strongly biased against me and sanction me inappropriately. But that is okay. I have a life outside of BB!

But it is false to say the Biblical doctrine of amillennialism was establish by the Roman Catholicism. It was established by the LORD Jesus Christ, who was GOD in the flesh, long before Roman Catholicism ever existed!

But DC has called me a Catholic a dozen times or more. I simply ignore the source because he is like this child:

 

[DHK]

So you think it worse to be called a follower of John Nelson Darby than to be called a follower of Roman Catholicism. That is very revealing! But it also shows that you are strongly biased against me and sanction me inappropriately. But that is okay. I have a life outside of BB!

But it is false to say the Biblical doctrine of amillennialism was establish by the Roman Catholicism. It was established by the LORD Jesus Christ, who was GOD in the flesh, long before Roman Catholicism ever existed!

But DC has called me a Catholic a dozen times or more. I simply ignore the source because he is like this child:

I agree that in some posts he has, and he shouldn't.
But in that post he did not. He did not address you personally.
He didn't even say that you were a follower of that doctrine. It was stated in completely neutral terms.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree that in some posts he has, and he shouldn't.
But in that post he did not. He did not address you personally.
He didn't even say that you were a follower of that doctrine. It was stated in completely neutral terms.[/QUOTE]

I spoke to OR in completely neutral terms and you gave me an infraction????

 

[DHK]

I agree that in some posts he has, and he shouldn't.
But in that post he did not. He did not address you personally.
He didn't even say that you were a follower of that doctrine. It was stated in completely neutral terms.[/QUOTE]

I spoke to OR in completely neutral terms and you gave me an infraction????

Neutral terms? Surely you jest?

if they step away from the prophect experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

There is nothing neutral about that statement no matter who are you are speaking TO. The "they" are the posters on this board. That is obvious, or the ones on the board that believe in "pre-trib rapture." Either way it includes us.
What have you done? You have told us that we need to step away from these terrible books and look at our Bibles instead.
Real nice Icon; real nice.
__________________

 

[Iconoclast]

Neutral terms? Surely you jest?

There is nothing neutral about that statement no matter who are you are speaking TO. The "they" are the posters on this board. That is obvious, or the ones on the board that believe in "pre-trib rapture." Either way it includes us.
What have you done? You have told us that we need to step away from these terrible books and look at our Bibles instead.
Real nice Icon; real nice.
__________________

You have a hard time being honest don't you?

here is the whole statement;

yes...however...these few might miss it...but many others will see the truth.

if they step away from the prophecy experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

These few might miss it......I can speak in general terms about any who hold the view...like you speak of Calvinism all the time. Nothing I said violates any rule except you being the thought police and inflicting your thoughts on it.

have you not noticed that most do not interact with you anymore as you exhibit this behavior. How many times do we have to call you on this?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Read the rules. Absolute freedom of speech is NEVER allowed,

That was not the question....I said OR has the right to express His view without you dictating to him what he can say.....

Read the rules and find out how your freedom of speech is curtailed when it says: "post in grace," and see if you can figure it out.

You always "post in grace".....??? You accuse us of being catholics, heretics. believing in works salvation.....but you get no infractions...as if you are above the rules.....

Many of the Calvinists on this board act as if they would wear a big bright button saying: "I am a Calvinist and proud of it." They are proud of the name Calvinist, not ashamed of it.

This again is not the issue.....You speak of Calvin all the time even when we do not.

Accepting my view of Calvinism is another thing of course

.

You have shown you do not grasp it.

This is a debate forum. It is not "succumb to Icon's every idea forum."

I never said it was...but if you do not like someone you give infractions to try and silence them like a cyber-bully......

He defends each and every point of Calvinism. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then...?

Really ....if you were not being hypocritical then the same exact principle can be used by OR to describe you and premill posters.....if it looks like darbys [a duck]teaching, and sounds like it[a duck] and walks like it[a duck] then it is....even if you claim it is not.....That is the exact same thing you are trying to put on OR......

Most Calvinists are proud of their name.

This again is not the issue.

We have nothing to do with Darby, don't believe in Darby's doctrines, etc.

And yet if do the same thing to cals everyday even when they tell you they have never read calvin.

Yet we are falsely accused it of almost daily. To be constantly falsely accused is not right.

Glad you feel that way as;
You accuse us of works salvation, heresy and worse everyday.

OR admits to believing in the Doctrines of Grace.

All Christians believe in grace,,,some just understand it better.

False accusations and lies are wrong.

Yes...that is why several of us have asked you to stop doing it....

You guys don't seem to get that.

On the contrary.....you need to consider your ways....

 

[DHK]

You have a hard time being honest don't you?

No, not at all.

here is the whole statement;

yes...however...these few might miss it...but many others will see the truth.

That presupposes that you are the one with the truth which makes your statement all the more arrogant.

if they step away from the prophecy experts and just look at each verse as it is written in the books they will not come up with that theory. They follow the dispy system and do not know about its origins...darby, the Plymouth brethren, the millerites, and agnes asmond.

Still the same ugly accusation.
You lump is in with "millerites" (the SDA), and all the others whom we steadfastly have told you that we have not obtained our doctrine from. Therefore you are perpetuating lies and false accusations. Why?

These few might miss it......I can speak in general terms about any who hold the view...like you speak of Calvinism all the time. Nothing I said violates any rule except you being the thought police and inflicting your thoughts on it.

There is nothing general about that specific accusation that was made.

have you not noticed that most do not interact with you anymore as you exhibit this behavior. How many times do we have to call you on this?

nope.