Did the Son of God Die?

[convicted1]

I am not suggesting any gnostic belief. Death in the bible does not mean ceased to exist. The Son of God died. But any plain reading of scripture as a whole tells us that what that means, is His spirit was separated from his body, which ceased having life in it. That is what death always means. I did not say Jesus ceased being fully God and fully Man at that time. I simply said his immaterial part separated from his material part; and that his immaterial part did not simply cease to exist for 3 days.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

You are forgetting that after his resurection, he DID HAVE HUMAN FLESH! and that he ascended into heaven as the resurected Christ, spirit & body.

Please answer once and for all: What was the state of God the Son's existence for the 3 days Jesus' body was in the tomb?

Strings, First off it is incorrect about Him having human flesh after his resurrection. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus had flesh and blood before His death.
1Cor 15:15
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So Yes He had a body that looked like ours after the resurrection but it was not human flesh and blood like ours according to scripture.
Even we who remain will one day be changed to go and be with our Lord as flesh and blood cannot enter in. (1Cor 15:53)
As to your question the bible says that The son of God died and was in the tomb (dead) for three days and three nights.

Rev 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Is it Gnostic dualism if God takes back the Holy Spirit when He gave up His spirit to return in three days?

Is Jesus the son of man spirit the same as the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not suggesting any gnostic belief. Death in the bible does not mean ceased to exist. The Son of God died. But any plain reading of scripture as a whole tells us that what that means, is His spirit was separated from his body, which ceased having life in it. That is what death always means. I did not say Jesus ceased being fully God and fully Man at that time. I simply said his immaterial part separated from his material part; and that his immaterial part did not simply cease to exist for 3 days.

Here is a statement from the OP.

"But the question is, “Did the Son of God die?” The answer is no."

The Son of God was not the Son just in spirit and not in flesh. Such teachings are gnostic and dualism. The Son died according to scripture. I know where this false teaching that He did not die comes from, 1Peter 3: 18,19
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

That passage does not say that He went during those three days while dead. He did this after He was resurrected and receiving His resurrected or spiritual body. The victory was not complete until He arose. He was made alive by the Spirit and rose from the dead and went and preached.

 

[12strings]

First off you are incorrect about Him having human flesh after his resurrection. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter in Heaven.
1Cor 15:15
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


So Yes He had a body that looked like ours but it was not human flesh and blood like ours according to scripture.
Even we who remain will one day be changed to go and be with our Lord as flesh and blood cannot enter in. (1Cor 15:53)
As to your question the bible says that The son of God died and was in the tomb (dead) for three days and three nights.

Rev 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1. Jesus ate fish. He had a glorified, perfect body. Are you saying he only appeared to have have a body, but did not really rise bodily?

2. You have miss-quoted a verse, it does not say flesh and blood cannot inhereit heaven, but the "kingdom of God." It is told that we will have New Bodies (flesh and blood) in the new heaven and new earth...

3. As to my question, you did not answer it.

 

[12strings]

The Son of God was not the Son just in spirit and not in flesh. Such teachings are gnostic and dualism.

-I agree, but that's not what I said. Jesus was fully man and fully God, but the question remains: What was the state of his spirit (fully God & Man) for the 3 days after his death? If you say it ceased to exist, you say Jesus "died" in a way that is different than EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO DIES.

The Son died according to scripture.

Agreed, but if you say His spirit ceased to exist, or even ceased to be aware, for 3 days, you are imposing a definition of death onto scripture that is not their. Simply saying "he died" does not define death.

The bible says Christ "upholds the world by his power", and "in him all things hold together...The world did not cease to exist for 3 days, therefore Jesus' Spirit was not inactive for 3 days.

 

[freeatlast]

1. Jesus ate fish. He had a glorified, perfect body. Are you saying he only appeared to have have a body, but did not really rise bodily?

2. You have miss-quoted a verse, it does not say flesh and blood cannot inhereit heaven, but the "kingdom of God." It is told that we will have New Bodies (flesh and blood) in the new heaven and new earth...

3. As to my question, you did not answer it.

Yes He ate fish and we will eat also in the kingdom, but He did it in a new Body that was not like the body He had before. The new body for one could never die again. It was not flesh and blood.

Yes I saw I did misquote the passage and corrected it. However it is nothing but semantics. Jesus did not have a human body as you claimed after He arose because the human body is flesh and blood and can die.

As to your question, yes I did answer it. You simply reject the bibles answer for another.

 

[freeatlast]

-I agree, but that's not what I said. Jesus was fully man and fully God, but the question remains: What was the state of his spirit (fully God & Man) for the 3 days after his death? If you say it ceased to exist, you say Jesus "died" in a way that is different than EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO DIES.


Agreed, but if you say His spirit ceased to exist, or even ceased to be aware, for 3 days, you are imposing a definition of death onto scripture that is not their. Simply saying "he died" does not define death.

The bible says Christ "upholds the world by his power", and "in him all things hold together...The world did not cease to exist for 3 days, therefore Jesus' Spirit was not inactive for 3 days.

You keep asking the same question and the bible keeps giving the same answer. The Son of God was dead for three days and three nights.

No the scripture does not say what you just wrote. There is no wonder why you are not able to accept what the bible says, The Son died and was dead for three days and three nights and rose after the third day.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus, the Son of man(fleshly body) died, and was buried. Jesus, Son of God(Spirit), never died. Jesus, Son of God(Spirit), entered into that garden tomb, and reentered His fleshly body(Son of man), and arose just as the scriptures stated He would. God the Son never died.

convicted1

You are omitting one significant fact that everyone else except Dr. Bob [post #83] has apparently ignored. The following, with added emphasis, was posted earlier!

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. The Church Fathers defined this union of God and man at the Council of Chalcedon.

Following is the definition of this union as presented at a Reformed website.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...p://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html

The Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.​

Note how this Creed describes Jesus Christ: following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood;

The man, Jesus Christ, consists of reasonable soul and body and of one substance with us as regards his manhood. There yet remains the Divine nature: complete in Godhead and of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead.

On the cross the body of Jesus Christ died and was placed in a tomb. The soul of the manhood of Jesus Christ returned to God who gave it. [Ecclesiastes 12:7] What happened to the Divine nature of Jesus Christ. One thing is certain; He did not die since God is eternal, immortal, invisible [1 Timothy 1:17] and cannot die.

 

[12strings]

You keep asking the same question and the bible keeps giving the same answer. The Son of God was dead for three days and three nights.

No the scripture does not say what you just wrote. There is no wonder why you are not able to accept what the bible says, The Son died and was dead for three days and three nights and rose after the third day.

You have yet to answer what you believe to be the state of Jesus' (fully God and human) spirit during the 3 days after his death. You say he was dead, so do I...but you do not define dead.

My Mother is dead...Is her spirit dead? Or is it simply not connected to her body?


As to scriptures...

Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant?

 

[HankD]

The resurrected body of the Son of God raised from the dead.

You keep asking the same question and the bible keeps giving the same answer. The Son of God was dead for three days and three nights.

No the scripture does not say what you just wrote. There is no wonder why you are not able to accept what the bible says, The Son died and was dead for three days and three nights and rose after the third day.

Yes, He died and was resurrected, after three days His soul/spirit reunited in His glorified body.

The nature of death:
As human beings our soul/spirit continues on after death.
This is essential - that Christ soul/spirit continued on and was received by the father in the same way as we seeing He is truly man.

Then comes the judgment and ultimately the assignment of the eternal dwelling place of the soul/spirit.

At His death, Jesus the Son of God's spirit returned to the father.

We are not told the details of that "exodus" except that after the three days He raised Himself from the dead.

The annihilation of and/or the sleep of the soul of the dead is unknown to true Christianity.

Some people throw around terms such as gnosticism and in some cases obliquely accusing some brethren of such (or so it seems).
There are precious few religions who hold to gnosticism as taught in the first 2-3 centuries of the church and in fact perhaps none.

Jehovah Witnesses have some gnostic beliefs inherited from Arianism of the first 2-3 centuries. At that time Gnosticism was a very complex and elaborate system of progressive emanations from a demiurge within a myriad of other fables, myths and unending geneolgies, etc....

I have studied and researched gnosticism from the extensive writings (20,000 plus pages of writings) of the apologetics of early church fathers and contemporary gnostics and can assure you that IMO no one who has posted here at the BB even comes close to holding a gnostic belief system except perhaps one tenet in one area. Some cultic groups hold to a few.

If someone here who has addressed gnosticism in this thread wants to start another thread challenging that statement I may very well engage you.

Make your opening premise/statement and bring forth your evidence from gnostic writings or even church father rebutals compared to these posts of those who are allegedly holding to gnostic beliefs.

e.g. The JW's teach that 1) Jesus ceased to exist at His death and that 2) the body He was raised in was not the same body He died in.

In effect they teach that He (Jesus) had to be re-created by God (the demiurge at the top of the emanation heap) purified from His "evil" flesh in His final emanation.

Once, I asked a JW "what then happened to the "evil" body Jesus died in?".

The answer - The disciples came and took it away to a secret place and disposed of it.

Here is a question I would ask of all. A question to determine if someone holds to a "gnostic" (Arian flavor) tenent concerning the death of the Son of God which I ask of JW's, Mormons, Moonies, even "orthodox" Christians etc...:

Was the resurrected body of Jesus Christ the same body He died in?

If you say NO, then you hold a dogma in common with a JW arian belief.
If you say YES then you are orthodox in belief.

NOTE: It was the same body but energized by the Spirit and not oxygenated mortal blood. Therefore He was no longer flesh and blood but flesh and spirit (materially speaking "flesh and bones").

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.​

This is essential to the question "did the Son of God die?.

Yes, He did and His body went into the grave.

However His soul/spirit continued on after his death at the will of the father. His soul/spirit did not cease to exist.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant?

Good luck on getting a response. I posted the passage from Colossians with a similar question and got, Nothing!

 

[freeatlast]

You have yet to answer what you believe to be the state of Jesus' (fully God and human) spirit during the 3 days after his death. You say he was dead, so do I...but you do not define dead.

My Mother is dead...Is her spirit dead? Or is it simply not connected to her body?


As to scriptures...

Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant?

I answered you wiht scripture. It is up to you to accept scripture or reject it. As To your question here the bible does not give an exact answer because of the way you worded it. However the Hebrews passage says "he upholds the universe by the word of his power."

 

[percho]

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. The Church Fathers defined this union of God and man at the Council of Chalcedon.

Following is the definition of this union as presented at a Reformed website.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...p://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html

The Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.​

Note how this Creed describes Jesus Christ: following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood;

The man, Jesus Christ, consists of reasonable soul and body and of one substance with us as regards his manhood. There yet remains the Divine nature: complete in Godhead and of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead.

On the cross the body of Jesus Christ died and was placed in a tomb. The soul of the manhood of Jesus Christ returned to God who gave it. [Ecclesiastes 12:7] What happened to the Divine nature of Jesus Christ. One thing is certain; He did not die since God is eternal, immortal, invisible [1 Timothy 1:17] and cannot die.

Now consider the following truth as stated in Scripture:

Hebrews 9:22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

How often Scripture talks about the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Ephesians 2:13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 13:12. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Hebrews 13:20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1 Peter 1:2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 John 1:7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Does God have blood? No! but the human nature of Jesus Christ did and it is His death, His shed blood, that provides remission of sin.

One more time: The Divine nature of Jesus Christ, God the Son, is eternal and immortal [1 Timothy 1:17] and therefore can not die, did not die.

OR: Would God have become flesh with out that blood? NO
Matt. 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (flesh and blood) and shall bring forth a son,(flesh and blood) and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (As flesh and blood) The Son, begotten of God.

The life (to be) (be-gotten) of him. Lev. 17:14 For [the blood, it is] the life of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life thereof: The Word, God became flesh through birth from the virgin Mary. God the Father and God the Son of the Father.
That word translated life in Lev is the word nephesh, soul the life that is the blood is the soul life. Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,


BTW, I am almost 70. I grew up in the Presbyterian Church and have been a member of and presently attend the same Southern Baptist Church for 35 years.

Through Jesus the Christ brought forth by the Virgin Mary, God: but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil. 2:7,8 YLT


Also one of the readers of the threads should address my question of why before the man Adam who was created in the image of God, male and female, the man who sinned and brought death to man; Did GOD determine that his Son born of the woman taken from the man created in the image of God would be slain and at the apparently same moment in time made a promise, the hope of eternal life.

Was this promise of hope made for? As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Or was it made for? And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Just how do you all, ya'll where I'm from think God settled the sin problem in man and why was there even a sin problem with the man created in the image of The Almighty God?

 

[percho]

He was speaking of the ascension of His physical body.

Metaphysically, in a way yes, God is capable of being in two places at the same time.

In fact, even you and I - His children here on earth are seated together with Him in heaven.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

All over the world wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there.

HankD

Are we, omnipresent, or is it just the two places we can be at one time, in Christ?

Have you inherited the kingdom of God?

Are you still flesh and blood? Is there yet a change in the future before you the living soul Hank can inherit the kingdom of God.

Why does Hank have to have a house from heaven? The same reason Hank to be in this world has to have an, earthly house of tabernacle.
In order for Hank to be found in the presence of God, in the world to come, Hank is going to need to be clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

When and how does Hank believe that takes place.

 

[percho]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12strings View Post

Hebrews 1:3 - He [the son, see v. 1-2] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Col. 1:17 And he [Christ, see v. 1-15] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Who was holding the universe together if Jesus' spirit was inactive, or non-existant

Good luck on getting a response. I posted the passage from Colossians with a similar question and got, Nothing!

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:1-6 KJV

When do either of you believe God the Father appointed His, Son heir of all things? V2
Now in Verse 4 it is stated, by inheritance he obtained a more excellent name, than the angels.
What name do you believe this to be?
God through the Holy Spirit tells you in the next verse and also tells you when this inheritance of obtaining took place. Son, by resurrection from the dead. Rom. 1:4 And declare the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
When do you believe he inherited the upholding of all things by the word of his power?

Actually you find out in chapter 2 that mankind was created for that same purpose, however from understanding the whole of the word of God you find this was not the intent of man in the image of the first man Adam but for the man, that would be born again, in the image of the last Adam, Jesus the Christ. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Heb 2:8,9,10 But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (Resurrected from the dead. crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Read chapter 5 also.

Colossians says the same.

1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; (Thou art my Son this day have I begotten you) that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(In the kingdom of God.)

 

[HankD]

Are we, omnipresent, or is it just the two places we can be at one time, in Christ?

The Spirit of Christ is omnipresent.

Have you inherited the kingdom of God?

Yes and no.

Are you still flesh and blood? Is there yet a change in the future before you the living soul Hank can inherit the kingdom of God.

Both flesh and spirit, my flesh and spirit are in constant conflict.

Why does Hank have to have a house from heaven?

It is the will of God for His children.

When and how does Hank believe that takes place.

Not sure, it depends on His coming.

HankD

 

[percho]

Was the soul, the soul that had been poured out unto death, Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God resurrected from the dead?

Help for those who may need it: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades,

Hades, OT Ps 16:10 shĕ'owl

From Wikipedia: Sheol: She'ol (play /ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]

 

[Yeshua1]

Good luck on getting a response. I posted the passage from Colossians with a similar question and got, Nothing!

jesus died physically, his spirit/soul stayed alive, for His very nature is that of God!

When he was physical dead those 3 days, God the father still was upholding all things!