Did the Son of God Die?

[freeatlast]

freeatlast,
You have been batting your head against the bricks for some time now and still have not even a dent in them. Jesus was completely man and completely God at the same time! Jesus died, the spirit being we know as the Son of God did not, he is infinate. I've explained this several times but perhaps I've not done so here yet, Jesus had one similarity to you. The spirit, the Son of God, never experienced the second death, He and you, the spirit being, will never die.

The Bible does not teach that the spirit dies the first death. The spirit of the lost man will not even suffer the first death, he will be in Hell, awaiting the Judgment and will eternally experience the spiritual death in the Bottomless Pit but that is horrible and without end.

You are still promoting gnosticism and dualism. The Son of God died on that cross according to the bible whether you like it or not.

 

[HankD]

You are still promoting gnosticism and dualism. The Son of God died on that cross according to the bible whether you like it or not.

True and He Himself also raised Himself from the dead while His body was in the tomb.

John 2

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.​

Man is tripartite (Composed of three elements)
or as some believe bipartite (Composed of two parts)​

I believe the scripture indicates that man is body, soul and spirit:​

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Or bipartite (2 parts)
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

In either case the scripture teaches that we are at least two components: material (Body) and immaterial (Soul/Spirit).​

If Jesus Christ was both truly God (and thus I believe - John 1:1) and truly man (as I believe because He came in the flesh - as a mortal human being subject to death) then thus was His being both material and immaterial:​

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.​

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.​

The scripture also teaches that the immaterial component of man has continuity after our mortal death and subsequently judged and goes into another existence until the resurrection of the body wherein heaven (New Jerusalem) or hell (Lake of fire) our eternal abode.​

In addition the scripture shows that the soul/spirit has intellect and will after death:​

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

Jesus Christ the Son of God at His death commended His spirit to the father.​

So, Jesus by His own spirit is how He raised Himself from the dead (a true human death which He experienced).​

John 2
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.​

HankD​

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
So God was dead! Who raised Him from the dead seeing God was dead and in the grave {Some even foolishly say God went to Hell.}

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

John 10:17,18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Acts 2:24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead.

1Thess 1
1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

All of the above. :smilewinkgrin:

Nonsense! You have told us that God is dead. Now you say He raised Himself from the dead.

 

[freeatlast]

Nonsense! You have told us that God is dead. Now you say He raised Himself from the dead.

No, I gave you scriptures and you have rejected what they say. Soooo what can I say, but what scripture says? The Son of God did die.

 

[asterisktom]

Dr. Bob

I hate to say it but you are wrong like most posting on this thread.

No matter what we say or do we cannot undo the truth of the Incarnation.

Similarly, no matter what anyone say or does God cannot be divided. There is ONE God. Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God, says:

John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

And God states:

Malachi 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not;

Is death a change or is it not? The answer is obvious. His Divine Nature had to remain unaltered, could not die.

If the Incarnate God died then His creation ceased to exist. I believe we are still here!

:thumbs::thumbs:

I believe that this is one of those areas about God, like the Trinity, that we just cannot understand. But there are certain clues in the Bible we can safely follow. The very fact that the Bible never explicitly says that God died - in those words - should guide our own thinking in this.

We certainly cannot divide God in such a way, in an attempt to satisfy our desire to be definitive in our theology, that undoes what Scripture already tells us - that God is One.

 

[freeatlast]

:thumbs::thumbs:

I believe that this is one of those areas about God, like the Trinity, that we just cannot understand. But there are certain clues in the Bible we can safely follow. The very fact that the Bible never explicitly says that God died - in those words - should guide our own thinking in this.

We certainly cannot divide God in such a way, in an attempt to satisfy our desire to be definitive in our theology, that undoes what Scripture already tells us - that God is One.

Alright let's use that formula. That means there is no Trinity, correct?

 

[OldRegular]

:thumbs::thumbs:

I believe that this is one of those areas about God, like the Trinity, that we just cannot understand. But there are certain clues in the Bible we can safely follow. The very fact that the Bible never explicitly says that God died - in those words - should guide our own thinking in this.

We certainly cannot divide God in such a way, in an attempt to satisfy our desire to be definitive in our theology, that undoes what Scripture already tells us - that God is One.

Thanks for your comments Tom!

 

[OldRegular]

Alright let's use that formula. That means there is no Trinity, correct?

Actually insisting that God died at the crucifixion is a denial of the Triune Godhead.

Scripture tells us that God is One. There can be no separation of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. To say that one dies is nonsensical.

God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So if the Divine nature of Jesus Christ died at the crucifixion why didn't God the Father and God the Holy Spirit die?

 

[HankD]

Aarg!!, one more crash and burn divisive thread.

The answer IMO and FWIW has to do with the nature of what Dr. Bob called the hypostatic union and the exact nature of Jesus Christ humanity as related to His death.

Personally I don't believe ANYONE here is denying that Jesus Christ died a true death.

I agree with Dr Bob that when we bring the hypostatic union into the picture we are treading on thin ice when we try to divide Christ up into human and divine.

I do believe the Scripture teaches that Christ had a human soul and spirit.

BTW and I'm sure Dr. Bob already knows this - there is a doctrinal schism between the reformed view (derived from the latin tradition) of the hypostatic union and the Eastern and Orthodox churches - many (perhaps even most denying the two natures of the Latin Tradition but upholding that Christ had only one nature - the Christ nature - a blending so to speak of human and divine) with one will.

If anyone is interested here is a web site with the different views:

http://www.ritchies.net/p2wk4.htm

This would certainly (IMO) affect our view of Christ agony and death.

I think we should be careful about throwing around names such as gnosticism and dualism because even to imply such of a BB member is probably not allowed as I believe these are bona fide "heresies".

Also by using these terms (gnosticism and dualism) shows that we have read somewhat the writings of men because they are nowhere mentioned as such in the Scripture.

After posting these many years I have seen a few reformed who hold to the Eastern and Greek doctrines of Christology and certain variations of the relationships between the persons of the Trinity (begotten, procedural) and so on...

To repeat however, I flaty reject the idea that anyone here has denied the real human death of Jesus Christ for our sins.

Suffice to say our issue is one of perception and understanding (or is it misperception and misunderstanding) each other.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Aarg!!, one more crash and burn divisive thread.

To repeat however, I flaty reject the idea that anyone here has denied the real human death of Jesus Christ for our sins.

HankD

Thank you for your comments. I certainly believe in the sacrificial Death of Jesus Christ in His human nature. I understand the concern expressed by Dr. Bob relative to the union of the Divine and human natures of Jesus Christ. That being said I believe it is serious error to state that God can die or did die! I believe Sproul has laid out the problem as well as it can be!

 

[th1bill]

free,
It is your choice to falsely accuse me of heresy and the man Jesus died and I put my life in Harm's Way to give you that right but to deny the clear teaching of scripture and to choose the, ever popular but false, teaching that the Son of God died is ignorant. Jesus died, the Spirit in Him did not nor will it ever. To choose to remain unlearned of the scriptures is fool's play. You just need to calm down, read the scriptures and pray for God to reveal to you the truth and He will. The most important thing is to drop the preconceptions taugt to you by men and to submit to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

 

[psalms109:31]

If in death you mean the whole being of Jesus is a corpse, then He couldn't raise Himself from the dead a corpse can do nothing.

I do believe my body becomes a corpse, but a soul not in Christ will be alive being where the worm dies not and where there will be gnashing of teeth.

To comprehend scriptural death where the soul is still tormented I don't think we can here.

 

[freeatlast]

Actually insisting that God died at the crucifixion is a denial of the Triune Godhead.

Scripture tells us that God is One. There can be no separation of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. To say that one dies is nonsensical.

God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So if the Divine nature of Jesus Christ died at the crucifixion why didn't God the Father and God the Holy Spirit die?

As I said before. The scripture says the Son died so He died. You are evidently not able to receive the scripture as given, I am. The Son of God died. God has chosen to hide from us how all this works, but being left in the dark as to how He does this does not make His word void as you are seeking to do. The Son of God died and rose from the dead.

 

[agedman]

When humankind die, where do they go?

When Jesus died, where did He go?

 

[asterisktom]

Alright let's use that formula. That means there is no Trinity, correct?

I wasn't going to divert the thread on this but, now that you mentioned it, I think the term "trinity" can be misleading. I say that because it over-emphasizes God's seeming "threeness" (for want of a better word) over His unity. Much better, I believe, is the German Dreieinigkeit - Tri-unity.

But, at any rate, the "formulas", as you term them, are not quite the same. There is a difference between, on the one hand, encapsulating one truth in a single-word shorthand - one term (Trinity or Tri-unity) for a well-attested biblical concept and, on the other hand, writing many words (as you and other have done here) to argue for an emphasis that is not found in Scripture.

For the record: No one here is denying that the Son of God is God, or that His deity left Him when He died on the cross. If He died as a man only then we are all in deep trouble.

And yet we need to follow Scriptures lead. We have passages like 1 Tim. 2:5

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

We have no similar passages that say "God died".

 

[freeatlast]

free,
It is your choice to falsely accuse me of heresy and the man Jesus died and I put my life in Harm's Way to give you that right but to deny the clear teaching of scripture and to choose the, ever popular but false, teaching that the Son of God died is ignorant. Jesus died, the Spirit in Him did not nor will it ever. To choose to remain unlearned of the scriptures is fool's play. You just need to calm down, read the scriptures and pray for God to reveal to you the truth and He will. The most important thing is to drop the preconceptions taugt to you by men and to submit to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Bill you are claiming the same thing that the Gnostics claimed. You have knowledge and those who disagree with you do not. You said that the Son of God did not die. The bible says He did. I think that sums up who is hearing Whom.

 

[freeatlast]

No one here is denying that the Son of God is God, or that His deity left Him when He died on the cross. If He died as a man only then when are all in deep trouble.

And yet we have passages like 1 Tim. 2:5

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Yes that is exactly what is being denied here by some.

 

[asterisktom]

Thanks for your comments Tom!

You are welcome, OR!

 

[asterisktom]

Yes that is exactly what is being denied here by some.

You have a reading comprehension problem. And, unless you can point me to some comment on this thread that I missed, you have made a serious and ill-considered accusation against fellow Christian(s).

You need to calm down, not be so hasty, that you don't really read what is being written.

 

[freeatlast]

You have a reading comprehension problem. And, unless you can point me to some comment on this thread that I missed, you have made a serious and ill-considered accusation against fellow Christian(s).

You need to calm down, not be so hasty, that you don't really read what is being written.

You could be correct. I may have a reading comprehension problem, but I still say what the bible says that Jesus the Son died which this OP denies. You and Old-Regular may want to get together and see what you two are talking about when you say
"If He died as a man only then when are all in deep trouble." and he claims the death was only as a man.