Did those seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of the Devil, put Jesus to death by godless men?

[kyredneck]

Where are the quote marks?

Are you dense? Whose Spirit was giving the apostles the mouth to speak those words?

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:

But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:

But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. Jn 16:2, 8-14

The Entity that spake these words:

17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. Jn 10

...is the very same Entity that spake these words:

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

 

[Van]

No. I am acknowledging ALL of Scripture.

Jesus life was NOT taken from Him. He lay down His life freely. He has authority over His life. He lay down His life. He was nailed to a cross and put to death by men He said were doing the work of the Devil.

You believe some Scripture but you deny what does not suit your belief. You, rather than God, are your own authority when it comes to doctrine. The reason is you read the Bible, accept of God's Word what you like and throw out what you do not.

All of Scripture is true.

Jesus lay down His own life. He has authority over His own life. His life was not taken from Him. AND men doing the deeds of Satan nailed Him to a cross by godless men and put Him to death.

I did not write those things, God did. Your argument is with Him, not me.

You cannot understand how those passages do not contradict one another, but that is your problem. It is a deficiency in you, not God.

Those men nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death. How do we know this? Because God said so.

We are done, you can take your claims of mind reading and sail them on the river.

 

[Van]

Are you dense? Whose Spirit was giving the apostles the mouth to speak those words? SNIP

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The scripture makes no bones that there was no forgiveness for the devils that crucified Christ:

Is that so? Did not our Lord pray, "Father, forgive then, for they do not know what they do"? Do you think His prayer was not heard?
So who are the 'them' for whom he prayed?
Well, it was the Romans soldiers who carried out the execution. Were they saved? Well, we only hear of one. 'So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, "Truly this Man was the Son of God!"'
But how about the priests and the Pharisees who plotted against him? Well, we read that 'A great multitude of the priests were obedient to the faith' (Acts 6:7) and in Acts 15:5 we are told that, 'Some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up.....'
So what about the ordinary Jews who cried out, "Crucify Him!" Could there be any salvation for them? Well, actually, yes. We hear of three thousand who were saved on the Day of Pentecost, and another two thousand very shortly afterwards (Acts of the Apostles 4:4) and then, 'And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women' (Acts 5:14), so that when Paul returned to Jerusalem many years later, there were "..... Myriads of Jews who have believed." (Acts of the Apostles 21:20). A 'myriad' in Greek means 10,000. True, the theology of these converts was a bit dicey, but there is no suggestion in the Bible that they were not saved.

 

[JonC]

We are done, you can take your claims of mind reading and sail them on the river.

No need to read minds. You already said that to believe those men "nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death" is to deny that Jesus lay down His own life, nobody took it from Him.

We have all read you directly deny the passage. No mind reading necessary.

 

[kyredneck]

Is that so? Did not our Lord pray, "Father, forgive then, for they do not know what they do"? Do you think His prayer was not heard?

Mere hours earlier He prayed:

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world [John 18:20], but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: Jn 17

You think there weren't many of His lost sheep that were caught up in the fracas of the crucifixion and later became believers? I assure you, He was praying for His sheep, not for the devils that orchestrated His murder.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

What is missing, of course, from these texts is any mention whatever of the devil. Rather we read the verses which you have carefully excluded that "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands........' (Acts 2:23) and a whole lot more of the same in Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28). It is God who put the Lord Jesus to death, as was planned before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:3-14).

 

[kyredneck]

What is missing, of course, from these texts is any mention whatever of the devil. Rather we read the verses which you have carefully excluded that "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands........' (Acts 2:23) and a whole lot more of the same in Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28). It is God who put the Lord Jesus to death, as was planned before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:3-14).

And yet Christ, through the mouths of His witnesses, convicts 'the world' [John 18:20] of the heinous crime of His murder:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

 

[JonC]

What is missing, of course, from these texts is any mention whatever of the devil. Rather we read the verses which you have carefully excluded that "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands........' (Acts 2:23) and a whole lot more of the same in Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28). It is God who put the Lord Jesus to death, as was planned before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:3-14).

References are throughout the Gospels. They were Jesus' words to the Jewish leaders that nailed Him to the Cross and put Him to death by the hands of godless men.

You cannot understand this because you are reluctant to consider Scripture itself as the complete Word of God. You are ignoring anything that Jesus said and focusing solely on Acts (on what was recorded Resurrection).

So you act as if the Jewish authorities that Jesus said were doing Satan's work for seeking to kill Him were all of a sudden Jewish authorities seeking to kill Him not doing Satan's work.

That is not intellectually or spiritually honest.

We cannot divorce the Gospels from the Book of Acts.

The Jewish authorities Jesus addressed did not change into some other Jewish authorities post-resurrection.

 

[kyredneck]

What is missing, of course, from these texts is any mention whatever of the devil.

You're supposed to be bright enough to see it, instead you stubbornly choose to keep disputing the scripture:

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@kyredneck
Thank you for proving my point. There is actually no text that proves that Satan killed the Lord Jesus.
Repeating these same texts over and over again does not make them show what you want them to show.
All you are doing is being @JonC's 'useful idiot' as he seeks to deny the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

The cross is the most glorious event in world history. 'God forbid that I should glory save in the cross.' It was God's plan from eternity and it was not facilitated by Satan. Making him out to be a half-wit is actually not helpful.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You think there weren't many of His lost sheep that were caught up in the fracas of the crucifixion and later became believers? I assure you, He was praying for His sheep, not for the devils that orchestrated His murder.

Of course He was praying for His sheep, but as usual, you miss the point spectacularly. In amongst the soldiers who hammered the nails into our Lord's hands and feet, there was at least one who was indeed one of His sheep. In among those priests and Pharisees who plotted His death, there were those for whom He would die; and among the crowd who brayed for Him to be handed over, there were some of the elect. The God who saved the great persecutor of Christians, Saul of Tarsus is well able to save whomever He wishes, even the 'devils' that orchestrated Christ's murder, and He won't ask your permission to do it.

 

[JonC]

@kyredneck
Thank you for proving my point. There is actually no text that proves that Satan killed the Lord Jesus.
Repeating these same texts over and over again does not make them show what you want them to show.
All you are doing is being @JonC's 'useful idiot' as he seeks to deny the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

The cross is the most glorious event in world history. 'God forbid that I should glory save in the cross.' It was God's plan from eternity and it was not facilitated by Satan. Making him out to be a half-wit is actually not helpful.

This does not have anything to do with the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. It has to do with accepting or rejecting God's Word. Many Christians who hold the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement also accept those passages you deny.

God is not half-witted ( if you are implying He is because He said that those men sought to kill Jesus because they believed Satan's lies, did his work, and nailed Jesus to a cross putting Him to death).

Satan is not half-witted either (if you are implying that he is because he falls under God's sovereign rule).

The issue is that you are denying God's Word because you believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is in jeopardy if God is correct.

But it isn't. I believe it wrong, but those passages you deny do not necessarily defeat the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (it was God's predetermined plan, His will).

You make Satan equal to God (by insisting that if Satan killing Jesus were God's will that'd make Satan half-witted). That is wrong.

That you would oppose God rather than have your theory questioned is telling. We are not even talking about interpretation here. We are talking about blatant rejection of Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You make Satan equal to God (by insisting that if Satan killing Jesus were God's will that'd make Satan half-witted).

My understanding of Christ's defeat of Satan may be found here:
Agnus Victor

 

[JonC]

My understanding of Christ's defeat of Satan may be found here:
Agnus Victor

I am not talking about Christ's defeat of Satan. We all know Christ defeated Satan.

I am talking about the fact that Scripture states that the Jewish leaders (those who Jesus said were seeking to kill Him as they were doing the work of their father the Devil who was a murderer from the beginning) nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death.

Then we also have Scripture describing the Crucifixion as the result of an unjust authority and judgment.


Now, you could claim that God was using Satan in line with Penal Substitution Theory. But you don't. You put Satan on equal grounds with God (God cannot use Satan because that'd make Satan half-witted).

What makes you think that Satan has the capability to act in a way not somehow under God's sovereignty? That is making Satan equal to God.

Scripture proves you wrong. What we see is not Satan thinking he can win but Satan's anger because he knows his time is short.

Satan (and the demons) know Scripture. They actually believe. They know what God says will occur is going to in fact occur.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is absolute garbage from start to finish.
But

I am not talking about Christ's defeat of Satan. We all know Christ defeated Satan.

The question is how and why Christ defeated Satan

What makes you think that Satan has the capability to act in a way not somehow under God's sovereignty?

Nothing is outside of God's sovereignty, but
why did Christ have to die?

 

[JonC]

The question is how and why Christ defeated Satan

Nothing is outside of God's sovereignty, but
why did Christ have to die?

Those are good questions (and questions that have been answered on topics dealing with those questions).

The topic of this thread is whether the Jewish authorities Jesus called children of the Devil, doing Satan's work, believing Satan's lies for wanting to kill Him...and Peter said nailed Jesus to the Cross and put Him to death....really did what Scripture says they did.

Thus far on this thread @kyredneck and I am the only members willing to say that Scripture (ALL of Scripture) is true.

You rejected the idea that those men really nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death via godless men. It seems that the passages simply do not fit into your theory, so you tore them out of your Bible (figuratively, of course).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Those are good questions (and questions that have been answered on topics dealing with those questions).

But not by you.
The rest of your post is too silly to merit any comment.

 

[JonC]

But not by you.
The rest of your post is too silly to merit any comment.

No, by me. You even discussed this on a thread I started for discussing the topic.

This is the argument of my post:

Jesus called the Jewish leaders children of the Devil seeking to kill them because they do the work of the Devil as the Devil who was a murderer from the beginning has lied to them. Then God tells us that these men nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death, and this was God's predetermined plan. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

I understand that you think it is silly, and even why you believe it is silly. But it is God's Word.

Many believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be silly, nothing but foolishness. But to me it is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[37818]

. . . but
why did Christ have to die?

And how did He die? What was finished before His physical death of His body? John 19:28!

τετέλεσται -- tetelestai - paid in full.