Did those seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of the Devil, put Jesus to death by godless men?

[kyredneck]

@Martin Marprelate

Now, you could claim that God was using Satan in line with Penal Substitution Theory. But you don't.

A small sampling from those in the PST camp that do:

“…In the third item of this marvelous prophecy reference is made to a double bruising, the woman”s Seed shall bruise the Serpentï”s head, and the Serpent should bruise His heel. The last clause in this prediction has already become history. The bruising of the heel of the womanï”s Seed is a symbolical reference to the sufferings and death of our Savior, who was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities….”
A.W. Pink A. W. PINK COLLECTION GLEANINGS IN GENESIS

“…His sufferings and death; pointed at in Satan's bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. And Christ's sufferings are continued in the sufferings of the saints for his name. The devil tempts them, persecutes and slays them; and so bruises the heel of Christ, who is afflicted in their afflictions. But while the heel is bruised on earth, the Head is in heaven….”
Matthew Henry Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…thou shalt bruise his heel—The serpent wounds the heel that crushes him; and so Satan would be permitted to afflict the humanity of Christ and bring suffering and persecution on His people….”|
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…If it be applied to the Seed of the woman, Christ, his heel may note either his humanity, whereby he trod upon the earth, which indeed the devil, by God’s permission, and the hands of wicked men, did bruise and kill; or his saints and members upon the earth, whom the devil doth in diverse manners bruise, and vex, and afflict, while he cannot reach their Head, Christ, in heaven, nor those of his members who are or shall be advanced thither….”
Matthew poole Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

And I will put enmity between {o} thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy {p} head, and thou shalt {q} bruise his heel.

(o) He chiefly means Satan, by whose action and deceit the serpent deceived the woman.

(p) That is, the power of sin and death.

(q) Satan shall sting Christ and his members, but not overcome them.
Geneva Study Bible Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…Jesus Christ died to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, and to destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil. Thus he bruises his head - destroys his power and lordship over mankind, turning them from the power of Satan unto God; Acts 26:18. And Satan bruises his heel - God so ordered it, that the salvation of man could only be brought about by the death of Christ; and even the spiritual seed of our blessed Lord have the heel often bruised, as they suffer persecution, temptation, etc….”
Clarke's Commentary Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…Thou shalt bruise his heel — The part which is most within the serpent’s reach, and on which, being bruised by it, the serpent is provoked to fix its venomous teeth, but a part remote from the head and heart, and therefore wounds there, though painful, are yet not deadly nor dangerous, if they be observed in time. Understood of Christ, the seed of the woman, his heel means, first, his humanity, whereby he trod upon the earth, and which the devil, through the instrumentality of wicked men, bruised and killed;…”
Benson Commentary Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…The seed of the serpent would bruise the heel of the seed of the woman. On the cross Satan bruised the heel of Christ, causing His death. Bruising suggests something that was not ultimate or final. Christ died on our behalf being made sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21). He bore our judgment upon Calvary's cross and, in doing so, bruised His heel. Though wounded, the damage done to Jesus was not final, for He came back from the dead three days later….”
What Does Genesis 3:15 Mean?

“…Satan was integral in the betrayal, arrest, torture, and execution of Jesus. During Jesus’ final meal with his disciples, Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus (Jn. 13:2, 27; Lk. 22:3). Revelation 12 tells us that Satan couldn’t wait to get his hands on Jesus, so that he could “devour” him (Rev. 12:4)….”
Why Did Satan Crucify Jesus? | Evidence Unseen

“…It was at the cross that Jesus was bruised. Yes, it was in the purpose and plan of God. Yes, it was God letting His Son be punished for our sins. Yes, it was the just wrath of God. But at the same time it was Satan who was inflicting these bruises. The sufferings of Christ on the cross was His bruise. And as I said, it healed very fast. It only took a few hours before Jesus said, “It is finished,” and in triumph gave His life up.

This bruise served the purpose of God. Sure, it was inflicted by Satan, because Satan was the source of sin. Satan was the source of the corrupt world system. Satan was the tempter who plunged the whole human race into sin. So in a great way, Satan is responsible for all of this. Therefore he’s responsible for the bruising of Jesus, even though it’s within the framework of God’s judicial purpose….”
https://www.masters.edu/thinking_blog/bruised-heel-crushed-head/

 

[JonC]

And how did He die? What was finished before His physical death of His body? John 19:28!

τετέλεσται -- tetelestai - paid in full.

You have made a mistake here.

τετέλεσται does not mean "paid in full".

τετέλεσται means finished, accomplished, or fulfilled.

When applied to a debt that has been paid it means "paid in full". When applied to a mission it means "accomplished".

The word itself simply means that it's finished or accomplished.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate



A small sampling from those in the PST camp that do:

“…In the third item of this marvelous prophecy reference is made to a double bruising, the woman”s Seed shall bruise the Serpentï”s head, and the Serpent should bruise His heel. The last clause in this prediction has already become history. The bruising of the heel of the womanï”s Seed is a symbolical reference to the sufferings and death of our Savior, who was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities….”
A.W. Pink A. W. PINK COLLECTION GLEANINGS IN GENESIS

“…His sufferings and death; pointed at in Satan's bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. And Christ's sufferings are continued in the sufferings of the saints for his name. The devil tempts them, persecutes and slays them; and so bruises the heel of Christ, who is afflicted in their afflictions. But while the heel is bruised on earth, the Head is in heaven….”
Matthew Henry Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…thou shalt bruise his heel—The serpent wounds the heel that crushes him; and so Satan would be permitted to afflict the humanity of Christ and bring suffering and persecution on His people….”|
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…If it be applied to the Seed of the woman, Christ, his heel may note either his humanity, whereby he trod upon the earth, which indeed the devil, by God’s permission, and the hands of wicked men, did bruise and kill; or his saints and members upon the earth, whom the devil doth in diverse manners bruise, and vex, and afflict, while he cannot reach their Head, Christ, in heaven, nor those of his members who are or shall be advanced thither….”
Matthew poole Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

And I will put enmity between {o} thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy {p} head, and thou shalt {q} bruise his heel.

(o) He chiefly means Satan, by whose action and deceit the serpent deceived the woman.

(p) That is, the power of sin and death.

(q) Satan shall sting Christ and his members, but not overcome them.
Geneva Study Bible Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…Jesus Christ died to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, and to destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil. Thus he bruises his head - destroys his power and lordship over mankind, turning them from the power of Satan unto God; Acts 26:18. And Satan bruises his heel - God so ordered it, that the salvation of man could only be brought about by the death of Christ; and even the spiritual seed of our blessed Lord have the heel often bruised, as they suffer persecution, temptation, etc….”
Clarke's Commentary Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…Thou shalt bruise his heel — The part which is most within the serpent’s reach, and on which, being bruised by it, the serpent is provoked to fix its venomous teeth, but a part remote from the head and heart, and therefore wounds there, though painful, are yet not deadly nor dangerous, if they be observed in time. Understood of Christ, the seed of the woman, his heel means, first, his humanity, whereby he trod upon the earth, and which the devil, through the instrumentality of wicked men, bruised and killed;…”
Benson Commentary Genesis 3:15 Commentaries: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

“…The seed of the serpent would bruise the heel of the seed of the woman. On the cross Satan bruised the heel of Christ, causing His death. Bruising suggests something that was not ultimate or final. Christ died on our behalf being made sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21). He bore our judgment upon Calvary's cross and, in doing so, bruised His heel. Though wounded, the damage done to Jesus was not final, for He came back from the dead three days later….”
What Does Genesis 3:15 Mean?

“…Satan was integral in the betrayal, arrest, torture, and execution of Jesus. During Jesus’ final meal with his disciples, Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus (Jn. 13:2, 27; Lk. 22:3). Revelation 12 tells us that Satan couldn’t wait to get his hands on Jesus, so that he could “devour” him (Rev. 12:4)….”
Why Did Satan Crucify Jesus? | Evidence Unseen

“…It was at the cross that Jesus was bruised. Yes, it was in the purpose and plan of God. Yes, it was God letting His Son be punished for our sins. Yes, it was the just wrath of God. But at the same time it was Satan who was inflicting these bruises. The sufferings of Christ on the cross was His bruise. And as I said, it healed very fast. It only took a few hours before Jesus said, “It is finished,” and in triumph gave His life up.

This bruise served the purpose of God. Sure, it was inflicted by Satan, because Satan was the source of sin. Satan was the source of the corrupt world system. Satan was the tempter who plunged the whole human race into sin. So in a great way, Satan is responsible for all of this. Therefore he’s responsible for the bruising of Jesus, even though it’s within the framework of God’s judicial purpose….”
https://www.masters.edu/thinking_blog/bruised-heel-crushed-head/

This is an example (this thread is proof) of the dangers of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. People are carried away by vain philosophy.

 

[37818]

You have made a mistake here.

τετέλεσται does not mean "paid in full".

τετέλεσται means finished, accomplished, or fulfilled.

When applied to a debt that has been paid it means "paid in full". When applied to a mission it means "accomplished".

The word itself simply means that it's finished or accomplished.

Well, if it is understood and so accepted that Jesus had received the wages of death when being forsaken by God on the cross, what had been finished, could be as paid in full to Him, by Him.

 

[JonC]

Well, if it is understood and so accepted that Jesus had received the wages of death when being forsaken by God on the cross, what had been finished, could be as paid in full to Him, by Him.

Not really. The wage is the wage of sin, not death, and it is what is earned by sinning. We sin and earn death because "sin, when fully grown, brings forth death".

 

[kyredneck]

This is an example (this thread is proof) of the dangers of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. People are carried away by vain philosophy.

Yea, like the cockamamie notion that Satan was actually trying to prevent the crucifixion.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have made a mistake here.

τετέλεσται does not mean "paid in full".

τετέλεσται means finished, accomplished, or fulfilled.

When applied to a debt that has been paid it means "paid in full". When applied to a mission it means "accomplished".

The word itself simply means that it's finished or accomplished.

teleo does mean 'paid' in the NT(Matthew 17:24; Romans 13:6). The word tetelestai is the Perfect Passive of teleo and has been found on ancient bills of lading and other documents, meaning 'It has been paid,' or as we would say 'Paid with thanks,' or 'Paid in Full.'

 

[JonC]

teleo does mean 'paid' in the NT(Matthew 17:24; Romans 13:6). The word tetelestai is the Perfect Passive of teleo and has been found on ancient bills of lading and other documents, meaning 'It has been paid,' or as we would say 'Paid with thanks,' or 'Paid in Full.'

τετελ can be found on bills, noting that the debt has been fulfilled. BUT τετελ is an abbreviation.

τετελώνηται refers to money paid as a tax (all of the examples we have of τετελ refer to a bill for taxation). τελώναι is the tax collector.


Problem is, of course, that the word used on these receipts (τετελώνηται) is not the same word used in John 19:30 (τετέλεσται), and Jesus’ cry would not have been understood as a reference to paid-off debt.

τετέλεσται means that it has been accomplished.

 

[37818]

Not really. The wage is the wage of sin, not death, and it is what is earned by sinning. We sin and earn death because "sin, when fully grown, brings forth death".

Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ."
Ezekiel 18:20, ". . . The soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
James 5:20, ". . . Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

 

[JonC]

Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ."
Ezekiel 18:20, ". . . The soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
James 5:20, ". . . Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Yep. Too many look at sin as a type of debt Jesus paid so that we wouldn't. Or that we die because God pays us death.

But you are exactly right, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

And the soul (נֶ֫פֶשׁ, person, people) that sins must die. There isn't a loophole. We will all die because we have all sinned. Too many seek God to have violated His Word via some loophole

 

[37818]

Yep. Too many look at sin as a type of debt Jesus paid so that we wouldn't. Or that we die because God pays us death.

But you are exactly right, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

And the soul (נֶ֫פֶשׁ, person, people) that sins must die. There isn't a loophole. We will all die because we have all sinned. Too many seek God to have violated His Word via some loophole

Sin is not the wage. Sin earns the wage of death.
Jesus received death of His soul when He was forsaken by God, Psalms 22:1. Less the fire, Mark 9:48, Psalms 22:6. Jesus taught the death of the body and death of the soul are distinct, Matthew 10:28.

 

[JonC]

Sin is not the wage. Sin earns the wage of death.
Jesus received death of His soul when He was forsaken by God, Psalms 22:1. Less the fire, Mark 9:48, Psalms 22:6. Jesus taught the death of the body and death of the soul are distinct, Matthew 10:28.

I agree sin is not the wage. Sin produces death (death is the wage of sin).

I agree that men have different parts, but when we sin we sin in the flesh. That is why the Bible uses the term "sinful flesh".

One problem with the KJV is not a problem with the translation itself but with how language has changed.

In the KJV the word "soul" in the verse "the soul that sins" refers to "person". It looks s not a mistranslation to use the word "soul", but in contemporary language there is a risk of people misunderstanding the English to refer to the "soul" rather than "body". That is why the KJV is no longer a good translation for English speaking people. Today they misunderstand the English words. Same with John 3:26 and "thus".

 

[37818]

I agree sin is not the wage. Sin produces death (death is the wage of sin).

I agree that men have different parts, but when we sin we sin in the flesh. That is why the Bible uses the term "sinful flesh".

One problem with the KJV is not a problem with the translation itself but with how language has changed.

In the KJV the word "soul" in the verse "the soul that sins" refers to "person". It looks s not a mistranslation to use the word "soul", but in contemporary language there is a risk of people misunderstanding the English to refer to the "soul" rather than "body". That is why the KJV is no longer a good translation for English speaking people. Today they misunderstand the English words. Same with John 3:26 and "thus".

The word death means a separation from life in some way. And death has three ways of this separation from life. Not having eternal life. The soul from the body. And the soul itself being dead.

 

[JonC]

The word death means a separation from life in some way. And death has three ways of this separation from life. Not having eternal life. The soul from the body. And the soul itself being dead.

The word "die" means to stop living. The word "death" is the action or fact of dying or being killed. Neither actually means "a separation from life". It means having life and then dying.

My point, however, is that "soul," in "the soul that sins" refers to "person" rather than one aspect or part of a man.

The KJV used "soul" appropriately. However as our language has changed (nobody now asks "how many souls were in the airplane?") the antiquated English causes some a bit of trouble.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

τετελ can be found on bills, noting that the debt has been fulfilled. BUT τετελ is an abbreviation.

τετελώνηται refers to money paid as a tax (all of the examples we have of τετελ refer to a bill for taxation). τελώναι is the tax collector.


Problem is, of course, that the word used on these receipts (τετελώνηται) is not the same word used in John 19:30 (τετέλεσται), and Jesus’ cry would not have been understood as a reference to paid-off debt.

τετέλεσται means that it has been accomplished.

I do not believe you are correct, but I shall have to spend some time looking at my sources. All I will say at this point is that tetel (τετελ) can be an abbreviation for tetelestai just as easily as for tetelonetai.

However, teleo has some very interesting meanings in the NT.

Matt 11:1, A.V. ‘…..When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples…..’

Matt 17:24. “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”

Luke 2:39. ‘So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord…..’

Luke 18:31. ‘…..And all the things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.’

So what was made an end of at the cross? Our sins, the guilt of them and their very memory in the mind of God (Jeremiah 31:34).

What was paid? The price of our redemption. ‘Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us’ (Gal 3:13).

What was performed? All the righteous requirements of the law.

What was accomplished? All the work that the Father had given Christ to do (John 17:4).

 

[JonC]

I do not believe you are correct, but I shall have to spend some time looking at my sources. All I will say at this point is that tetel (τετελ) can be an abbreviation for tetelestai just as easily as for tetelonetai.

However, teleo has some very interesting meanings in the NT.

Matt 11:1, A.V. ‘…..When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples…..’

Matt 17:24. “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”

Luke 2:39. ‘So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord…..’

Luke 18:31. ‘…..And all the things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.’

So what was made an end of at the cross? Our sins, the guilt of them and their very memory in the mind of God (Jeremiah 31:34).

What was paid? The price of our redemption. ‘Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us’ (Gal 3:13).

What was performed? All the righteous requirements of the law.

What was accomplished? All the work that the Father had given Christ to do (John 17:4).

Yes, look it up (NEVER take somebody's word for it because people can make errors).

What you will find is that in all known instances where τετελ was written on a type of financial document (if I recall it was about 40) they all refer to tetelonetai (they were all tax documents).

The idea that tetelestai meant "paid in full" was a tradition associated with a few people over a century ago. It persists as tradition today (like the legend of the candy cane).

We are all adults. It is time to set aside legends and myths and deal seriously with Scripture. The fact is that tetelestai means "a accomplished".

What was accomplished? The Bible tells us - Christ's humbling of Himself, being obedient even to death on a cross. It was accomplished. God would deliver Him, raise Him from the grave and glorify Him in the glory He shared with the Father. It is a complicated.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, look it up (NEVER take somebody's word for it because people can make errors).

What you will find is that in all known instances where τετελ was written on a type of financial document (if I recall it was about 40) they all refer to tetelonetai (they were all tax documents).

The idea that tetelestai meant "paid in full" was a tradition associated with a few people over a century ago. It persists as tradition today (like the legend of the candy cane).

We are all adults. It is time to set aside legends and myths and deal seriously with Scripture. The fact is that tetelestai means "a accomplished".

What was accomplished? The Bible tells us - Christ's humbling of Himself, being obedient even to death on a cross. It was accomplished. God would deliver Him, raise Him from the grave and glorify Him in the glory He shared with the Father. It is a complicated.

Obviously if the word means 'paid in full' it is only going to be found on financial documents, and tax records are more likely to be preserved than other records.

It didn't take me long to find the website from which you got your information, but I went a little further and found 'Precept Austin' TETELESTAI-Paid in Full | Precept Austin It is well worthwhile reading the entire article, but I will paste part of it for your special attention.

(4) MERCHANTS:

In ancient times when a promissory note was paid, the one holding the note wrote “TETELESTAI” across it. A deed to property was not in effect until it was dated and signed, and when this was accomplished, the clerk wrote “TETELESTAI” across the deed. When someone had a debt and it was paid off, the creditor would write "TETELESTAI" on the certificate of debt signifying that it was "PAID IN FULL". It is reported in several secondary sources that several years ago, archaeologists digging in Egypt uncovered the "office" of an ancient "CPA." In this office they found a stack of bills, with the Greek word "tetelestai" inscribed across each bill - "Paid in full"! (See next paragraph which gives historical support for the interpretation of tetelestai as "paid in full.) When Christ gave Himself on the Cross, He fulfilled all the righteous demands of the law and our "sin debt" was PAID IN FULL. The OT sacrifices covered sin but could never take sin away. Jesus accomplished what all of the old covenant sacrifices could not do. "In eternity the Son gave the Father a "promissory note" that He would pay the price for humanity’s redemption (see Heb 10:5–7+). On Calvary the note was PAID IN FULL. TETELESTAI!" (H H Hobbs) As Spurgeon said "There is no mortgage on the saints." Wayne Grudem adds that "If Christ had not paid the full penalty, there would still be condemnation left for us. But since he has paid the full penalty that is due to us, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Ro 8:1+).

New classical fragments and other Greek and Latin…

On page 78 we have a section entitled "L. Second Third Century A. D. From the Fayoum" (Fayoum is in Egypt) where we read that "The 14 papyris grouped together are receipts for various taxes paid by persons transporting goods on baggage animals from the Fayoum to Memphis and vice versa across the desert road."

Continuing on page 79 we read "The formula in these 14 papyri is with some variations as follows. It begins with the abbreviation tetel. (which in one case, f2, written out in full, tetelestai) dia pules ("through the gate"), followed by the name of the village; then comes the name of the tax of which there are three varieties, etc. (page 79)

This ancient manuscript substantiates that tetelestai was occasionally used to mean "paid in full" in secular (commercial) settings.

.

 

[JonC]

Obviously if the word means 'paid in full' it is only going to be found on financial documents, and tax records are more likely to be preserved than other records.

It didn't take me long to find the website from which you got your information, but I went a little further and found 'Precept Austin' TETELESTAI-Paid in Full | Precept Austin It is well worthwhile reading the entire article, but I will paste part of it for your special attention.

(4) MERCHANTS:

In ancient times when a promissory note was paid, the one holding the note wrote “TETELESTAI” across it. A deed to property was not in effect until it was dated and signed, and when this was accomplished, the clerk wrote “TETELESTAI” across the deed. When someone had a debt and it was paid off, the creditor would write "TETELESTAI" on the certificate of debt signifying that it was "PAID IN FULL". It is reported in several secondary sources that several years ago, archaeologists digging in Egypt uncovered the "office" of an ancient "CPA." In this office they found a stack of bills, with the Greek word "tetelestai" inscribed across each bill - "Paid in full"! (See next paragraph which gives historical support for the interpretation of tetelestai as "paid in full.) When Christ gave Himself on the Cross, He fulfilled all the righteous demands of the law and our "sin debt" was PAID IN FULL. The OT sacrifices covered sin but could never take sin away. Jesus accomplished what all of the old covenant sacrifices could not do. "In eternity the Son gave the Father a "promissory note" that He would pay the price for humanity’s redemption (see Heb 10:5–7+). On Calvary the note was PAID IN FULL. TETELESTAI!" (H H Hobbs) As Spurgeon said "There is no mortgage on the saints." Wayne Grudem adds that "If Christ had not paid the full penalty, there would still be condemnation left for us. But since he has paid the full penalty that is due to us, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Ro 8:1+).

New classical fragments and other Greek and Latin…

On page 78 we have a section entitled "L. Second Third Century A. D. From the Fayoum" (Fayoum is in Egypt) where we read that "The 14 papyris grouped together are receipts for various taxes paid by persons transporting goods on baggage animals from the Fayoum to Memphis and vice versa across the desert road."

Continuing on page 79 we read "The formula in these 14 papyri is with some variations as follows. It begins with the abbreviation tetel. (which in one case, f2, written out in full, tetelestai) dia pules ("through the gate"), followed by the name of the village; then comes the name of the tax of which there are three varieties, etc. (page 79)

This ancient manuscript substantiates that tetelestai was occasionally used to mean "paid in full" in secular (commercial) settings.

.

You are getting caught up in the weeds of your own making.

The word itself does not mean "paid in full". It is dishonest to claim otherwise.

The argument is that tetelestai (accomplished) was used the indicate "the financial issue has been accomplished" when written on ancient bills.

But the word itself means "accomplished" (what was accomplished depends on the context - where it was used).

To derive the context of tetelestai in Scripture based on one possible secular use is reading into Scripture.

It is simply intellectually dishonest and lazy.

Think for a minute, of your argument, before you reply:

You say "Accomplished" when written on a bill means the debt is accomplished.

When we pay a debt we use the term "paid in full".

Therefore on the Cross when Jesus cried "it does s accomplished" he meant "paid in full".


See what I mean. That is dishonest reasoning.

I could say when a race is done it is finished (tetelestai). Therefore Jesus was saying "the race is over".

That, however, would not be honest.


You are interpreting Scripture according to your philosophy. That is why you have been carried away so far from biblical doctrine.

We have to allow Scripture to determine our doctrine - not, as you do, allow doctrine to determine Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JonC,
Once again, when you have been shown to be wrong, you resort to insult. This is one of the several reasons why you are unsuited to being a moderator.
It is you who are intellectually dishonest and lazy. If you had taken the trouble to read further than the first website you came to, you would have realised that your confident assertions about tetelestai never being used to mean 'paid in full' were wrong.
Secondly, if you had troubled to read my post #115, you would have understood that I have not stated that tetelestai must mean 'paid,' but that the word has a wide semantic range which includes 'paid.'

Your problem, or one of them, is that you are interpreting Scripture according to your philosophy. That is why you have been carried away so far from biblical doctrine.

We have to allow Scripture to determine our doctrine - not, as you do, allow doctrine to determine Scripture and then stamp your little foot when you are shown to be wrong.

 

[JonC]

@JonC,
Once again, when you have been shown to be wrong, you resort to insult. This is one of the several reasons why you are unsuited to being a moderator.
It is you who are intellectually dishonest and lazy. If you had taken the trouble to read further than the first website you came to, you would have realised that your confident assertions about tetelestai never being used to mean 'paid in full' were wrong.
Secondly, if you had troubled to read my post #115, you would have understood that I have not stated that tetelestai must mean 'paid,' but that the word has a wide semantic range which includes 'paid.'

Your problem, or one of them, is that you are interpreting Scripture according to your philosophy. That is why you have been carried away so far from biblical doctrine.

We have to allow Scripture to determine our doctrine - not, as you do, allow doctrine to determine Scripture and then stamp your little foot when you are shown to be wrong.

Now, that was not an insult.

If the word was "void" and I insisted that "void" meant a cancellation of a bill because voiding a bill is a cancellation then you would be right to call into question my integrity in dealing with the word (it could be a cancellation of a ticket, a check, an admission document, a license, a contract).

It is the same with "accomplished".

What is accomplished is the real question. By ignoring the context and insisting "accomplished" means "paid in full" because when applied to a debt the debt is paid in full is intellectually dishonest.

Were a debt canceled without being paid the debt would be finished (tetelestai).

If Jesus was simply speaking of His obedience even to death on a cross it would be accomplished or finished (tetelestai).


You are not legitimately dealing with the actual word (you are dealing with your theory rather than Scripture).


You could say that tetelestai , if applied to a debt, means that the debt is no longer legitimate (it is paid, canceled, or in some satisfactory form made null).

But that is not what you do. You simply read your philosophy into the passage and insist it is right without actually dealing with the biblical text and words used.