Did you know?

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

As usual, no scripture for the following; just theory:
_____________________________________________________________
"I agree that AC rules the world for only 42 months as the 8th king -- But he rules the EU among 10 appointed "kings" for almost the full 7 years. With what power would he enforce the covenant without that"?
_____________________________________________________________

Antichrist receives power in the same HOUR God puts into the hearts of
the Ten Kings to give him their power and authority". Rev.17:12-13.

The W&H of the Beast's 7th Head occurs at Midweek! That's when the
AC will first be "revealed"!! That's when God Judges the False Church
by "taking it out of the midst" of human government; not, as your theory proposes, i.e., that He takes the True Chuch to heaven so the Pope
can "change his beliefs" and persecute the Saints for 42 months!!!

Your "switch" calls for a good laugh!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :laugh:

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Still theory; No agreement of corollary scripture:

Quote:_______________________________________________________
Mel, your sceanrio is pretty good, actually. :love2: Problematic, but good. Think about it though -- 2thes 2:6-7 is pretrib. 2:3 tells us that the harlot comes, then the MoS, then the SoP. So the harlot is the RCC, 2:6-7 is the TRUE church being taken out, "that Wicked revealed" is the MoS, and the SoP is the GT AC having "flung" the harlot.
_____________________________________________________________

The passage you quote is the same I have given to show the MoS (the 8th King, the Son of Perdition) is revealed at MIDWEEK! The Harlot comes, as you have admitted, before the 70th Week begins!! But the Pope is NOT the Antichrist as you claim. He rules the Harlot and thru him she rules as a product of the victory of the White Horseman (which the Pope also is NOT; despite your theory that he rides the White Horse before "taking peace from the earth" as the Rider on the Red Horse; Rev.6:1-4)!!!

2 Thess.2:6-7 cannot be the TRUE part of the Church, as you claim, because the Judgment of God "must begin with the Apostate FALSE part of the Church being "taken out of the midst" of human government FIRST ... both in its masculine form taken over by the Pope and in its neuter form under a SYSTEM of World Power produced by the Vatican.
I Pet.4:17.

The Antichrist will have no power at all to "fling his own Vatican"! The Ten Kings destroy the City "in one hour"!! "THEY HATE HIM AND THE SYSTEM", another truth you have "twisted" since the Pope will be destroyed instead of "changing" his own System!!! Rev.17:16.

In that same "hour", Rev.17:12, the Ten will receive "power as the Kings" who suddenly consort with the MoS because that is when Satan empowers the Beast-Person for the first time as the son of perdition!! The Beast from the Abyss comes up to indwell the Little Horn (suddenly the son of perdition) at Midweek as the 7th Head; and thus does the W&H affect the entire Beast and the world worships!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.

The ELEVEN rule together and persecute the Saints for 42 months only!
"Until God's words are fulfilled"!! Rev.13:3-7; Rev.17:8-11; Rev.17:12-18. Your theory is bankrupt from the start for lack of corollary scriptures to show exactly when the whole world "worships the Beast" who rules over the 7th World Empire in its SECOND STAGE according to both Rev.13 and 17; not just Rev.17 as you claim!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Now we are beginning to get the Big Picture:

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
I agree that AC rules the world for only 42 months as the 8th king -- But he rules the EU among 10 appointed "kings" for almost the full 7 years. With what power would he enforce the covenant without that?
_____________________________________________________________

The Ten Horns are not crowned prior to the W&H of the Beast-Animal's 7th Head since the crowns are only on the ten heads; not yet on the seven horns. Rev.12:3; Rev.13:1. Only at the time of W&H do the Ten
Kings receive crowns!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:12. This W&H is when the Beast "was, is not, yet" (Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8) continues to exist as the same World Empire and suddenly, at Midweek, as the Personal Antichrist ... a rule that exists first thru the Harlot System "over these eleven horns" but suddenly under the Abyss-Beast personified as the Son of Perdition!!!

Therefore neither the Ten Horns nor the Beast represent identified rulers over the first stage of the 7th World Empire! The Demonic Person from the Abyss arises on the day the Ten Kings are crowned and at the "HOUR they receive power AS Kings" at Midweek!! These two actions (total destruction of Mystery Babylon and Empowerment of the Little Horn) constitute two of FIVE CATALYSTS of the 3 1/2 year Endtime of Daniel's prophecy!!! Dan.12:4-11.

Glad to see you beginning to get the Big Picture!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Your view of an apostate Pope turning into the Antichrist is anathema:

My Quote:
Your view wrongly assumes the Pope is the Antichrist! It is therefore also wrong to assume the Pope will be “apparently resurrected” after receiving a “deadly wound”!!
Your response:
Is it wrong that this makes him appear as Christ before a people who will follow after one who comes in his own name? Who is preceded by a "false Elijah"/false prophet? That he then makes his capital city Jerusalem (Dan 11:45)? That he then begins to make war on those Jews who saw Christ just as Gog was attacking (Joel 2:12-30, Zech 12:10, Ezek 38-39) and BELIEVED and are the "saints" of Rev 13 that he makes war against? Do you see that he is actually trying to come into Christ's world kingdom at this point?
_____________________________________________________________

NO! "The world wonders after and worships the Beast from the Abyss" only after God removes the Apostate Church in a total act of destruction to its Ruler and City!! This Judgment precedes the revelation of AC!!!

Your view is too shallow by failing to realize God's Judgment on the Apostasy affects the "household of God" before the Antichrist can be revealed in order to "prepare His people who will know the End is near when the AC stands in the Temple"! Matt.24:15,33. Your view is totally flawed by denying the Beast of Rev.13 is the Beast of Rev.17:

Your Quote:
____________________________________________________________
Both beasts are NOT the 7th empire. The Rev 17 beast is the AC, a "scarlet beast" just like his "father" the "red dragon"/Satan -- the Rev 13 beast is the 7th WORLD empire, a COMPOSITE beast in appearance, and only it's head is wounded to make way for the 8th king. Go reaccomplish your homework on this one, mel.
____________________________________________________________
Look Again:
The 7-headed, 10-horned Beast is the same Beast in both chapters. It exists in two separate stages, i.e., first to represent the rule of Mystery Babylon for a "short time" over the 7th World Empire and second to represent the rule of the Son of Perdition, the Beast from the Abyss!

Rev.13 describes the Personified Beast after its 7th head is W&H! And Rev.17 describes the rule of Mystery Babylon for a "short time" over the first stage of the same 7th World Empire!! You are correct that only its 7th Head is wounded; but the W&H affects the ENTIRE BEAST so the same Head allows the World Empire that "was ruled by the Woman IS NO LONGER RULING; and YET IS still the 7th World Empire ruled by an entirely different Ruler, the 8th King!!!

You are totally wrong that "Rev.13 and 17 do not refer to the same Beast"! In each case the Beast has 7 crowned heads and ten uncrowned horns until Mystery Babylon has been "removed from the midst" of human government by God's Judgment ... which must precede the rule of the 8th King!! Rev.17:1,7,11. The W&H has the same result at the same time in both chapters: "All the world wonders and worships the Beast" when the ruler of 7th World Empire, which WAS Babylon, NO LONGER rules and YET the 7th World Empire continues to be ruled by another Beast, the Beast "from the Abyss"!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
My Quote:
Again, the wound is deadly; not just an "injury" And the wound affects the entire Beast; not just the 7th Head!! [He is identified as "the Beast that received the deadly wound" in order to distinguish him from the Beast from the earth.] The head alone, however, comes to represent the 8th King when Ten Kings destroy and bring about the Endtime change of both Ruler and System which still continue as the SAME 7th Empire!!!
Your quote: That's garbled logic. The beast is dead but the head is not?

The Beast is "revived" by being replaced with the Beast from the Abyss! The HEAD of the other Beast represents TWO successive Rulers over the same World Empire!! Its first Ruler, Mystery Babylon, ceases to rule when the Ten Kings "eat her flesh and destroy her with fire" ... they confiscate the System, are "crowned as kings" because the Beast from the Abyss displaces the 7-headed Beast and the 8th King changes its "times and laws"!!!

Here's your unsubstantiated Scenario:

1. You identify the Pope as the Antichrist.
2. You remove the True Church instead of judging the False Church.
3. You give no reason for the Pope to change his own religion after
the apostate System is removed from the midst of human government.
4. You make the Beast of Rev.17:3 different than the Beast of Rev.13:1.
5. You fail to recognize the 7-Headed Beast replaced by the Abyss-Beast.
6. You have the AC revealed before he stands in the temple! Matt.24:15.
7. You make the Rapture a requirement for peace-time under the Harlot!!
8. You make the Pope God's instrument of Judgment on the Saints!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[skypair]

skypair,

As usual, no scripture for the following; just theory:
_____________________________________________________________
"I agree that AC rules the world for only 42 months as the 8th king -- But he rules the EU among 10 appointed "kings" for almost the full 7 years. With what power would he enforce the covenant without that"?
_____________________________________________________________

1) We agree -- do you need to know where YOU got this from?? :laugh: Answer the question -- you'll figure it out.

Antichrist receives power in the same HOUR God puts into the hearts of
the Ten Kings to give him their power and authority". Rev.17:12-13.

Yes, and that would be one month after he confirms the covenant (Zech 11:8) seeing it is at that time that he "plucks up" 3 shepherds/kings.

The W&H of the Beast's 7th Head occurs at Midweek! That's when the
AC will first be "revealed"!!

You're arguing that no one will recognize him as the MoS AND that no one will realize it is him that "confirms" the covenant of 10 other kings AND that they are not the military power by which he does so. Pretty steep proof required on your side!

That's when God Judges the False Church by "taking it out of the midst" of human government; not, as your theory proposes, i.e., that He takes the True Chuch to heaven so the Pope can "change his beliefs" and persecute the Saints for 42 months!!!

How are you getting that, anyway?? I've never heard anyone even propose to have gotten that from that text.

skypair

 

[skypair]

skypair,

Still theory; No agreement of corollary scripture:

Quote:_______________________________________________________
Mel, your sceanrio is pretty good, actually. :love2: Problematic, but good. Think about it though -- 2thes 2:6-7 is pretrib. 2:3 tells us that the harlot comes, then the MoS, then the SoP. So the harlot is the RCC, 2:6-7 is the TRUE church being taken out, "that Wicked revealed" is the MoS, and the SoP is the GT AC having "flung" the harlot.
_____________________________________________________________

The passage you quote is the same I have given to show the MoS (the 8th King, the Son of Perdition) is revealed at MIDWEEK! The Harlot comes, as you have admitted, before the 70th Week begins!! But the Pope is NOT the Antichrist as you claim. He rules the Harlot and thru him she rules as a product of the victory of the White Horseman

Well, I think you gotta ask yourself then why the white horseman looks like Christ and comes as the FIRST seal at the beginning of the trib yet is NOT the "Vicar of Christ."

(which the Pope also is NOT; despite your theory that he rides the White Horse before "taking peace from the earth" as the Rider on the Red Horse; Rev.6:1-4)!!

And again -- this has NEVER been my theory!

2 Thess.2:6-7 cannot be the TRUE part of the Church, as you claim, because the Judgment of God "must begin with the Apostate FALSE part of the Church being "taken out of the midst" of human government FIRST

I don't follow this reasoning. Why is it you think that the false church "restrains" AC??? Or how cah you say that God helps Satan bring his demonic kingdom into being by taking out (which you admit the 10 kings, not God do) the harlot?? Little confused at this point, aren't you?

1Pet.4:17 .

And you are saying that the fiery trials where God is going to be on their side is the HARLOT church?? Silly boy -- Peter is talking to the Jreusalem church that is about to be scattered in 70 AD, 4:12-19!!

The Antichrist will have no power at all to "fling his own Vatican"! The Ten Kings destroy the City "in one hour"!! "THEY HATE HIM AND THE SYSTEM", another truth you have "twisted" since the Pope will be destroyed instead of "changing" his own System!!! Rev.17:16.

Or his "destruction" might be part of the deception! Ever consider that? Does he REALLY die? Zech 11:17 doesn't suggest that. And the passage does NOT confirm your assertion that they hate the beast -- only the harlot.

In that same "hour", Rev.17:12, the Ten will receive "power as the Kings" who suddenly consort with the MoS because that is when Satan empowers the Beast-Person for the first time as the son of perdition!!

Good on ya, mate! We're making progress! You at least can distinguish between MoS and SoP. :smilewinkgrin:

The Beast from the Abyss comes up to indwell the Little Horn (suddenly the son of perdition) at Midweek as the 7th Head; and thus does the W&H affect the entire Beast and the world worships!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.

I think you got the order of events a little off. The MoS has to give up his body through the W&H in order to be indwelt, friend.

The ELEVEN rule together and persecute the Saints for 42 months only!

Well, if you don't count that they already persecuted/martyred the 5th seal saints, I can see where you might think that.

"Until God's words are fulfilled"!! Rev.13:3-7; Rev.17:8-11; Rev.17:12-18. Your theory is bankrupt from the start for lack of corollary scriptures to show exactly when the whole world "worships the Beast" who rules over the 7th World Empire in its SECOND STAGE according to both Rev.13 and 17; not just Rev.17 as you claim!!!

I think YOU are failing to ask the right questions and do some research on the scenario I offer because you have prejudged it to be wrong. How about being a good student and look up the passages I offer in explanation (the way I check you out is with www.Intraverse.com -- a FREE lookup download that allows me to place my cursor on your citations and see immediately what they say in KJV. I think you would be better prepared for your work with this tool! :type:

skypair

 

[skypair]

NO! "The world wonders after and worships the Beast from the Abyss" only after God removes the Apostate Church...

Where do you get that God removes apostasy when, in fact, that is what enables the MoS and the SoP to be revealed??

...in a total act of destruction to its Ruler and City!! This Judgment precedes the revelation of AC!!!

OK, who IS the ruler of the harlot and the city if not the Pope?? And you are saying, I guess, that this RULER is not the one who is revived? Where and who is AC while all this is going on??

Your view is too shallow by failing to realize God's Judgment on the Apostasy affects the "household of God" before the Antichrist can be revealed in order to "prepare His people who will know the End is near when the AC stands in the Temple"! Matt.24:15,33.

Those "people who know the end is near" ARE ISRAEL, mel -- JEWS -- at the temple! Want another verse? Zech 11:11

Your view is totally flawed by denying the Beast of Rev.13 is the Beast of Rev.17:

mel -- they DON'T EVEN LOOK THE SAME! One is the scarlet beast like Satan. One is the composite beast like Daniel saw in Dan 7 -- leopard, lion, bear, etc. Rev 17 has horns and NO crowns -- Rev 13 has horns with crowns already (not waiting for the deadly wound to heal or nothin!).

skypair

Your Quote:
____________________________________________________________
Both beasts are NOT the 7th empire. The Rev 17 beast is the AC, a "scarlet beast" just like his "father" the "red dragon"/Satan -- the Rev 13 beast is the 7th WORLD empire, a COMPOSITE beast in appearance, and only it's head is wounded to make way for the 8th king. Go reaccomplish your homework on this one, mel.
____________________________________________________________
Look Again:
The 7-headed, 10-horned Beast is the same Beast in both chapters. It exists in two separate stages, i.e., first to represent the rule of Mystery Babylon for a "short time" over the 7th World Empire and second to represent the rule of the Son of Perdition, the Beast from the Abyss!

Rev.13 describes the Personified Beast after its 7th head is W&H! And Rev.17 describes the rule of Mystery Babylon for a "short time" over the first stage of the same 7th World Empire!! You are correct that only its 7th Head is wounded; but the W&H affects the ENTIRE BEAST so the same Head allows the World Empire that "was ruled by the Woman IS NO LONGER RULING; and YET IS still the 7th World Empire ruled by an entirely different Ruler, the 8th King!!!

You are totally wrong that "Rev.13 and 17 do not refer to the same Beast"! In each case the Beast has 7 crowned heads and ten uncrowned horns until Mystery Babylon has been "removed from the midst" of human government by God's Judgment ... which must precede the rule of the 8th King!! Rev.17:1,7,11. The W&H has the same result at the same time in both chapters: "All the world wonders and worships the Beast" when the ruler of 7th World Empire, which WAS Babylon, NO LONGER rules and YET the 7th World Empire continues to be ruled by another Beast, the Beast "from the Abyss"!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:[/QUOTE]

 

[Mel Miller]

1) We agree -- do you need to know where YOU got this from?? :laugh: Answer the question -- you'll figure it out.
Yes, and that would be one month after he confirms the covenant (Zech 11:8) seeing it is at that time that he "plucks up" 3 shepherds/kings.

You're arguing that no one will recognize him as the MoS AND that no one will realize it is him that "confirms" the covenant of 10 other kings AND that they are not the military power by which he does so. Pretty steep proof required on your side!

How are you getting that, anyway?? I've never heard anyone even propose to have gotten that from that text.

skypair

____________________________________________________________
Well, now, here we see the complete divergence between the view presented by Pre-Trib and Post-Trib Dispensationalists! As one of the
latter, I hold that God's wrath does not begin until the DAY Christ comes in glory and gathers ALL the Saints to Himself ... with the help of angels!! Skypair assumes that Antichrist and Ten Kings begin the 7-Year-Period of God's Wrath with the destruction of the Harlot, Mystery Babylon!!!

I maintain the destruction of the Harlot occurs as one of FIVE ENDTIME CATALYSTS just 3 1/2 years after "many" sign the Covenant of Dan.9:27!
Only at MIDWEEK can the "little horn" of Dan.7 be identified as the Antichrist!! He "singles" himself out as the one "standing in the Temple"!!!

The error of the unsubstantiated theory promulgated by Pre-Tribbers falsely assumes the Antichrist (8th King) and Ten Horns are "crowned" at the start of the 7-Year Period! Therefore skypair is unable to discern that BOTH the Pre-Wounded Beast of Rev.13:1-3 and Rev.17:1-7 (each with 7 heads and 10 horns) exists as a 7th World Empire under the Pre-Midweek Rule of the Harlot!! Jesus clearly revealed that "we will know the END IS NEAR (at MIDWEEK) when we see the Abomination in the Temple as he begins the 42-month ENDTIME!!!

This should lead skypair to an understanding of his fault in assuming the
Harlot will be "removed from the midst" of human government 3 1/2 years before Antichrist is revealed! She will be removed at MIDWEEK by the Ten Kings who hate the System as well as the one who Rules over it!! That Ruler is the Pope but NOT the one "healed" after being "wounded unto death"!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[skypair]

:tongue3:

____________________________________________________________
Well, now, here we see the complete divergence between the view presented by Pre-Trib and Post-Trib Dispensationalists! As one of the
latter, I hold that God's wrath does not begin until the DAY Christ comes in glory and gathers ALL the Saints to Himself ... with the help of angels!!

That's intereisting. The prewrathers AND pretribbers actually see God's wrath in the 7 vials that SAY they are God's wrath. Wonder how long before Christ's return that is?

Skypair assumes that Antichrist and Ten Kings begin the 7-Year-Period of God's Wrath with the destruction of the Harlot, Mystery Babylon!!!

Yeah, Rev 17:16 says they hate her, etc.

I maintain the destruction of the Harlot occurs as one of FIVE ENDTIME CATALYSTS just 3 1/2 years after "many" sign the Covenant of Dan.9:27!

I was reading AW Pink last night and made an interesting connection regarding your thought. He said that the "unclean man" in Mt 12:43-45 is Judas spirit leaving and then returning to Israel in AC with 7 spirits more wicked than himself. You think the 7 more spirits could be the 7 heads/7 previous kings, the returning spirit of Judas being the 8th?

Only at MIDWEEK can the "little horn" of Dan.7 be identified as the Antichrist!! He "singles" himself out as the one "standing in the Temple"!!!

Many think that. Scripture only stipulates that he is revealed, not how. Course, most think it is by appearing to be Christ -- since he is AC, ya know.

The error of the unsubstantiated theory promulgated by Pre-Tribbers falsely assumes the Antichrist (8th King) and Ten Horns are "crowned" at the start of the 7-Year Period!

"Unsubstantiated?" How about Zech 11:8 which you have never responded to? How about Rev 13 where AC "and upon his horns, ten crowns" already? Since Rev 17 is pretrib to pre-midtrib, what makes your theoy substantiated that it comes only after midtrib??

Therefore skypair is unable to discern that BOTH the Pre-Wounded Beast of Rev.13:1-3 and Rev.17:1-7

mel just can't tell the difference here between a "scarlet beast" AC and a composite "4 empires" beast of the GT. Ya know, mel. For one making all these accusations, you sure got a lot of error in your own theory. :tongue3:

(each with 7 heads and 10 horns)

You're leaving out that the one has 10 crwons and the other doesn't, too!

Jesus clearly revealed that "we will know the END IS NEAR (at MIDWEEK) when we see the Abomination in the Temple as he begins the 42-month ENDTIME!!!

What's this got to do with anything?

This should lead skypair to an understanding of his fault in assuming the
Harlot will be "removed from the midst" of human government 3 1/2 years before Antichrist is revealed! She will be removed at MIDWEEK by the Ten Kings who hate the System as well as the one who Rules over it!!

True! I've always agreed with that.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Mel wrote:
Only at MIDWEEK can the "little horn" of Dan.7 be identified as the Antichrist!! He "singles" himself out by "standing in the Temple"!!!
skypair:
"Many think that. Scripture only stipulates that he is revealed, not how. Course, most think it is by appearing to be Christ -- since he is AC, ya know". ____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
HOW is AC to be revealed? Just as Daniel, Jesus and Paul stipulate! Dan.12:11; Matt.24:15,33; 2 Thess.2:4. The "revelation" occurs at MIDWEEK at the sign they give for identifying the AC ... when just 1290 (less 30) days remain until the END of the AGE!! Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22.

Mel wrote:
The error of the unsubstantiated theory promulgated by Pre-Tribbers falsely assumes the Antichrist (8th King) and Ten Horns are "crowned"
at the start of the 7-Year Period!

skypair: "Unsubstantiated? How about Zech 11:8 which you have never responded to? How about Rev 13 where AC `and upon his horns, ten crowns' already? Since Rev 17 is pretrib to pre-midtrib, what makes your theoy substantiated that it comes only after midtrib"??
_____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
Zech.13:8 is irrelevant since "Crowns" appear on the 7 Heads only as one of Five Midweek Catalysts! The 10 Horns are "crowned" only at Midweek when the 10 Horns are Personified as Ten Kings!! Horns cannot represent "Kings" until the "hour" comes for them to be personified and "receive Power as Kings with AC and God puts into their minds to support him"!!! Rev.17:12,17.

Mel wrote:
Therefore skypair is unable to discern that BOTH the Pre-Wounded
Beast of Rev.13:1-3 and Rev.17:1-7 refer to the same Animal.

skypair: "mel just can't tell the difference here between a `scarlet beast' AC and a composite `4 empires' beast of the GT. Ya know, for one making all these accusations, you sure got a lot of error in your own theory. :tongue3:
______________________________________________________________
Mel writes out of understanding Scripture:
The 4 empire beast of Rev.13:3 shows its relationship to the same Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in Rev.17:3 and described in Dan.7! They each refer (in its final state) to "the Kingdom which the Saints of the Most High will receive" on the Day the "Lamb comes with ALL the Saints"!! All these Scriptures (Rev.13:3-18; Rev.17:8-18; Dan.7:9-27; I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14) are fulfilled within the Endtime of 1290 days!!! Dan.12:11.

Mel's quote:
Quote:
(Each with 7 heads and 10 horns)
skypair:
"You're leaving out that one has 10 crowns and the other doesn't, too"!
_____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
The main clause is that each Beast has "7 heads and 10 horns" PRIOR to
the subsidiary clauses with its experience of being "wounded and healed" in Rev.13:3 and which 7th Kingdom "WAS and IS NOT" in Rev.17:8 at the "HOUR" the Ten Horns are Personified as Kings! Please stop demeaning my faithfulness to the integrity of the Scriptures ... especially when you obstinately refuse to acknowledge the "HOUR" must first come at Midweek when the HORNS will be Personified as well as the ANIMAL itself!! No Endtime (1260-day) action of either the personified Ten Horns NOR Beast-Animal (as the personal AC) can be instigated or activated until MIDWEEK and the "HOUR" these Ten are "crowned as Kings" at the same time the Beast-Animal is Personified by the "Beast from the Abyss"!!! Rev.17:8.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[skypair]

:wavey:

skypair,

Mel wrote:
Only at MIDWEEK can the "little horn" of Dan.7 be identified as the Antichrist!! He "singles" himself out by "standing in the Temple"!!!
skypair:
"Many think that. Scripture only stipulates that he is revealed, not how. Course, most think it is by appearing to be Christ -- since he is AC, ya know". ____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
HOW is AC to be revealed? Just as Daniel, Jesus and Paul stipulate! Dan.12:11; Matt.24:15,33; 2 Thess.2:4.

Sorry Charlie -- your first 2 citations are deficient in mentions of AC at all! The last one is merely a further chronological description of him AFTER he is seen as the MoS first!

Mel wrote:
The error of the unsubstantiated theory promulgated by Pre-Tribbers falsely assumes the Antichrist (8th King) and Ten Horns are "crowned"
at the start of the 7-Year Period!

skypair: "Unsubstantiated? How about Zech 11:8 which you have never responded to? How about Rev 13 where AC `and upon his horns, ten crowns' already? Since Rev 17 is pretrib to pre-midtrib, what makes your theoy substantiated that it comes only after midtrib"??
_____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
Zech.13:8

Look again -- I didn't say Zech 13:8. I said 11:8.

is irrelevant since "Crowns" appear on the 7 Heads only as one of Five Midweek Catalysts! The 10 Horns are "crowned" only at Midweek when the 10 Horns are Personified as Ten Kings!! Horns cannot represent "Kings" until the "hour" comes for them to be personified

Dan 7:24 calls you WRONG! "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:..."

Mel wrote:
Therefore skypair is unable to discern that BOTH the Pre-Wounded
Beast of Rev.13:1-3 and Rev.17:1-7 refer to the same Animal.

skypair: "mel just can't tell the difference here between a `scarlet beast' AC and a composite `4 empires' beast of the GT. Ya know, for one making all these accusations, you sure got a lot of error in your own theory. :tongue3:
______________________________________________________________
Mel writes out of understanding Scripture:
The 4 empire beast of Rev.13:3 shows its relationship to the same Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in Rev.17:3 and described in Dan.7!

You're missing the point, friend. Rev 17 is RELIGIOUS Babylon -- not a world empire. Do you deny this? And where, therefore, does AC emerge -- religion or politics?? Is he "Christ-like" or "Casaer-like?" The former. He is like his father, the red dragon, only mascerading as Christ!

Read Isa 28:15. Apparently Israel realizes they are "covenanting" with AC when they sign the 7 year treaty, right? In the citation you give, Paul calls him MoS BEFORE midtrib.

Mel's quote:
Quote:
(Each with 7 heads and 10 horns)
skypair:
"You're leaving out that one has 10 crowns and the other doesn't, too"!
_____________________________________________________________
Mel writes:
The main clause is that each Beast has "7 heads and 10 horns" PRIOR to
the subsidiary clauses with its experience of being "wounded and healed" in Rev.13:3 and which 7th Kingdom "WAS and IS NOT" in Rev.17:8 at the "HOUR" the Ten Horns are Personified as Kings!

And do you not think that distinctions (subsidiary clauses) are important??

And your citation is making no connection to what "hour" is being spoken of so you weakly go to the "hour" of midtrib. Really? How about the 'hour' that Philly is kept from testing? half of which transpires from the 7th seal til the 7th seal's completion (the 7th seal not complete until all 7 trumpst and all 7 vials are complete), Rev 8:1? I'll teach you more on this if you like :godisgood:

Please stop demeaning my faithfulness to the integrity of the Scriptures ... especially when you obstinately refuse to acknowledge the "HOUR" must first come at Midweek when the HORNS will be Personified as well as the ANIMAL itself!!

There's NOTHING in scripture to warrant that except your own imagination, mel! Where else are you getting this "hour" difinition?? Even Daniel doesn't call it an "hour" but a "time."

No Endtime (1260-day) action of either the personified Ten Horns NOR Beast-Animal (as the personal AC) can be instigated or activated until MIDWEEK and the "HOUR" these Ten are "crowned as Kings" at the same time the Beast-Animal is Personified by the "Beast from the Abyss"!!! Rev.17:8.

Here's Rev 17:8. I see 4 "wild assumptions." Where do you see all those assumptions you name mentioned? "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Mel, you still haven't told me where and who you think AC is during the 1st half of the trib. Do you find any scripture that tells us?

skypair

 

[skypair]

mel,

Where'd you go, bud?

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

mel,

Where'd you go, bud?

skypair

In my "wild assumptions", I haven't found the answer about knowing the identity of Antichrist except that Jesus says, upon his act of standing in the Temple, "we will know the end is near"! Matt.24:15,33.

You know my view and I know yours. I see no need to re-hash what we
have debated over and over. Sufficient unto the day are those "wild assumptions" thereof ... until another thread offers a challenge!

Mel

 

[skypair]

In my "wild assumptions", I haven't found the answer about knowing the identity of Antichrist except that Jesus says, upon his act of standing in the Temple, "we will know the end is near"! Matt.24:15,33.

You know my view and I know yours. I see no need to re-hash what we
have debated over and over. Sufficient unto the day are those "wild assumptions" thereof ... until another thread offers a challenge!

Mel

Knowing the identity of AC. Study on it with me, then. I asked you who and where do you suppose the AC is during the first half of the trib. You imply there is no way to know someone whose identity is not revealed. But is it really not revealed?

Let me ask you then -- is the white horse rider Christ? If he's not, he's doing a pretty good impression of Him, isn't he? Does that in any way suggest "AC" to you? If so, who does Christ come back with? His church, right? So who do you suppose AC would be "riding" (keeping in mind that before the trib, the harlot was seen "riding" him)?

Does it occur to you that Daniel said he was a little, diverse horn emerging from the midst of 10 larger horns? Does Vatican City come to mind as a small "kingdom?" Does it being a theocracy come to mind as being "diverse?" Does Rome "ring a bell," Rev 17:18? How about 10 "kingdoms" of the WEU (Western EU -- the original 10 members)?

Let's suppose that the White horse rider -- let's just assume he was the Pope -- got into it with the red horse rider -- let's just assume that is the Mahdi of Islam. Let's suppose (not too far fetched according to today's news) that 3 of the kingdoms of the white horse abhorred the rider (let's just call that Zech 11:8) and went and joined to the red horse rider. Let's further assume they issued an "assassinate the Pope" fatuah! Assassinate him with a sword, no less. Hmm. This is getting delightfully interesting, is it not?

Let's suppose that the only reason you don't know who and where the AC is is because you are like a crook looking for a cop -- it'll NEVER happen! Not so long as you blind yourself with this notion of his "invisibility" until midtrib, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Mel,

You don't know where he comes from and, apparently, you don't care to discover whether God reveals him before midtrib, right? Like the Jews, you discard what you don't want to see and remain "partially blind" turning others away from the truth/faith. Who are you serving with that attitude?

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel,

You don't know where he comes from and, apparently, you don't care to discover whether God reveals him before midtrib, right? Like the Jews, you discard what you don't want to see and remain "partially blind" turning others away from the truth/faith. Who are you serving with that attitude?

skypair

_____________________________________________________________

My view from the start, clearly stated, reflects the teaching of Jesus and Paul that we will "know (when) the End is Near, i.e., with the abomination
sitting in the Temple"! Matt.24:15,33. It also reflects the fact that the White Horseman (which you assume is the AC) must be the one bringing "peace to the world" before the Red Horseman "takes peace away"!!
Rev.6:1-4. You refuse to even consider a possible scenario in which the W&H of the 7th Beast's Head and Babylon's fall from power may refer to events at MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven rather than to an assassination and resurrection of AC!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.

Instead of acknowledging the "possibility" of the Beast of Rev.13:3 and Rev.17:3 referring to the same Beast of World Power over which Mystery Babylon must rule a "short time" prior to the revelation of AC, you hypoth- esize they are two different beasts though each has 7 heads and 10 horns ... simply because one is "scarlot" colored and not the other! On that flimsy basis you rule out any consideration of my view!! Please don't re-hash your old arguments in light of this recalcitrant attitude!!!

Over against revealed truth you insist on another hyposthesis as being TRUTH because you assume the Antichrist will rule the world (supporting the Harlot) prior to MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven! Instead of the removal of that which "restrains" the AC being the Harlot's global power and rulership that includes all nations, both good and evil "mixed together like iron and clay", Dan.2:40-44; and whose fall is the necessary condition by which we will "know" AC's identity, You ALSO insist the Church will not be here to help restrain his coming to power!! Instead, you assert we can ascertain as a definite fact that his identity can be known 42 months before he begins to reign over the world!!!

Do your hypotheses make sense with the Church departed to heaven?
Is your recalcitrant attitude condusive to a friendly discussion??
Will you continue a beligerant, know-it-all stance, expressed as humor???

Like, as you assumed my reaction to be: "I wan't my mommy"! I was sick
of your off-the-cuff denigrations of every viewpoint I gave!! Dogmatism is so self-evident by your humorous inattention to the basis for my views ... or that, as you claim, they contain "four wild assumptions"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

[Keith M]

I can see Bitsy picking up that tomato and threatening to throw it at me...

Go, Bitsy, go! Need some help!

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Mel Miller]

Did Your Know

Go, Bitsy, go! Need some help!

:smilewinkgrin:

Keith (thanks to tinytim),

Interesting comment! You seem to realize even God's "long-anger" (makro-thumia; Rom.2:4-5) turns to "great-anger" (mega-thumos; Rev.14:10,19) before it becomes His "anger-filled-wrath" (orgay; Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15)
on the "great DAY of God's and the Lamb's Wrath". Rom.2:5; Rev.6:17.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[skypair]

mel

My view from the start, clearly stated, reflects the teaching of Jesus and Paul that we will "know (when) the End is Near, i.e., with the abomination sitting in the Temple"! Matt.24:15,33.

Correction: Israel will know the end is near when this happens. That's when THEY flee, not you.

It also reflects the fact that the White Horseman (which you assume is the AC) must be the one bringing "peace to the world" before the Red Horseman "takes peace away"!!

Good. Then you recognize that the white horseman looks like Christ and is REVEALED to be such.

You refuse to even consider a possible scenario in which the W&H of the 7th Beast's Head and Babylon's fall from power may refer to events at MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven rather than to an assassination and resurrection of AC!!! Rev.13:3; Rev.17:8.

It's BOTH. Babylon and AC will have fallen and arisen by midtrib.

Instead of acknowledging the "possibility" of the Beast of Rev.13:3 and Rev.17:3 referring to the same Beast of World Power over which Mystery Babylon must rule a "short time" prior to the revelation of AC, you hypoth- esize they are two different beasts though each has 7 heads and 10 horns

One red, one composite. One with no crowns, one with crowns. One trib, one GT. A good biologist would note the differences and want some explanation, don't you think?

Over against revealed truth you insist on another hyposthesis as being TRUTH because you assume the Antichrist will rule the world (supporting the Harlot) prior to MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven!

You misquote my view in 2 ways: 1) the trib AC no longer "supports" the harlot but is abused by him in the early trib. 2) I don't see AC ruling the world prior to midtrib -- he only the EU before that.

Instead of the removal of that which "restrains" the AC being the Harlot's global power and rulership that includes all nations, both good and evil "mixed together like iron and clay", Dan.2:40-44;

The AC is a Pope -- the harlot the Catholic Church. Only if the true church is removed will the "restraint" be taken away. The AC would have no power if the harlot was removed. Instead, the harlot is "abused" by AC as the foundation for his world religion.

And that "iron-clay" allusion is to the world empire and the Jews. The Jews were scattered into the iron in 70 AD but they never were mixed/assimilated there. Israel is the "clay" per Jer 18/Rom 11.

and whose fall is the necessary condition by which we will "know" AC's identity, You ALSO insist the Church will not be here to help restrain his coming to power!! Instead, you assert we can ascertain as a definite fact that his identity can be known 42 months before he begins to reign over the world!!!

Indeed, I do! He gets a "crown" before the red horse emerges, right? He confirms a peace like the white horse rider's "peace." Dan 9:27 and Isa 28:15 both tell us of the 7 year peace "with death and hell." But you say we can't identify the one who "confirms" that peace? Who receives a crown above his peers?

Do your hypotheses make sense with the Church departed to heaven?

Not the Catholic Church, no. But with the true church, yes.

Is your recalcitrant attitude condusive to a friendly discussion??

Is yours?

Will you continue a beligerant, know-it-all stance, expressed as humor???

My post before last was postulative in nature. Just what do you think of this and that. You still didn't respond. I'm trying to get your spiritual juices flowing here. AC will emerge from a small, distinct kingdom in the EU. The harlot that rides him now is in Rome, Rev 17:18. What are your thoughts?

skypair