Originally posted by Me2:
Frogman,
has any elders spoken on the specific subject that referrs to newborn or infants being chosen to be "in christ" without their intimate knowledge of conversion or regeneration?.
Pastor Larry, or Bro. Glenn would be better to answer this, or any other with more knowledge than myself concerning what Baptist (groups) have historically believed as well as Biblical support. I have been discussing this of late (as a result of the general question of 'when or how' regarding regeneration/quickening. BTW, I view these as interchangeable, I may be confusing the two, but I do view these two as being the same thing. I would agree these are different than conversion [see Strong's], but I am not certain there is a period of time. I am equally not sure these occur simultaneously, but I am certain from scripture that conversion does occur in one born of God. I base this upon the fact that Christ All the Father hath given me will come to me and other verses I think I listed above or somewhere on this board. So I am convinced the Biblical position is one that supports all the elect to come to God through Christ who is the door. [I will add, the PB's I have discussed this with identifying themselves 'absoluters' meaning absolute predestinarian are not in disagreement to the fact all the elect will know Christ Spiritually, but not that they will know his name, or know about him.] But there are others who also call themselves PB who may take a different stand, even as it is among Landmark Baptists of which I am. Much of the discussion I have been involved with concerning this question is, IMHO, a matter of words and thier meanings....almost bordering on a violation of 2 Tim. 2.14. So great care must be taken in entering into the discussion that what is meant by each party is clearly defined and understood. The most difficult part is getting past this initial stage of definition of what each side means by the terms they use and the way they use them. Many are happy to discuss these things with anyone, but some are unwilling to even read a word of which they have a varying belief upon. This is their right as Baptists [liberty of conscience] and as Americans.
Originally posted by Me2:
does the calvinist concepts that God "chooses" whom will be saved before their birth?
What I have written above is true here as well. I don't want to generalize Calvinists, but most that I know believe this. [So do the PB brethren]. It is more difficult to answer among Calvinists, the identification is Presbyterian and Protestant and IMHO, not Baptist, at least not historically. {note I said IMHO, others can share their view}. What I find is that to call oneself Calvinist can mean different things. Some will take all five points of the catechism called 'TULIP' while others will further make distinctions. Among these distinctions I have been among those who are Sovereign Grace--in all connotations of the term. Sovereign Grace with distinctions--meaning the atonement fulfilled by Christ was efficient for all mankind, thereby not limiting the atonment to the elect. There seems to be a greater number of these, in my experience. Then there are those who will take fewer points made in the catechism and will not hold to either perserverance nor preservation. A further distinction among Calvinists that I have not seen in PB's and I don't believe I will, is that of a general call [seemingly to which the non-elect will have opportunity to believe the Gospel but will reject it, thereby, IMHO, justifying God in their condemnation. Generally, a Calvinist beleives in predestination and that no one of the number of the elect will fail to be eternally saved. You must remember, this is founded upon the eternal Purpose of God, worked by His eternal Grace and for the purpose of the praise of the glory of His Grace, therefore there is no consideration made in election dependent upon the future actions of man [Eph. 1.11-12]. God knows all things. Man is sinful by nature, God knows man is sinful. This knowledge requires the Grace of God to provide himself a sacrifice...because he looked and there was no man, and not one sought after him. Because it is said that not one seeks after God, then the effect of fruits is not a consideration moving God to save any, for not one is worthy and if left to themselves would condemn themselves even in the attempt to worship. Generally, the Calvinistic concept of election/predestination is in line with 'whom he hath predestinated he hath called, whom he hath called he hath justified [loose paraphrase, but you are familiar with the scripture [Rom. 8.28-34].
Originally posted by Me2
but what if such a birth is terminated?
what then?
This is a very important question and requires much study and thought. Among Calvinists it is commonly taught there is an 'age of accountability'. Because of this I have begun a thread on that topic to discover the Biblical nature if we are able to do so by the Will of God. Just prior to posting that thread, I was involved in a discussion with a Sovereign Grace Landmark Missionary Baptist, same as myself, but on another forum. Our discussion began with absolute predestination. He believes God absolutely predestinated all things to the smallest detail, including sin, such that God created all things and sin is a part of our nature, thus God created sin, at least the concept of it to include in the nature of the created being...from lucifer to ourselves.
I also believe God is in Sovereign control of all things, but not such that he has decreed the sins I may commit daily. Rather I believe this is in me to do by nature of being a finite being, but not decreed by God such that he would in any form appear to sanction it. While I agree with this brother that sin shall ultimately bring glory to God through judgement, I don't agree at my present understanding of scripture that God decreed in my life specific sins. This does not mean I believe these to be able to take God unawares, nor that he must make or change his plan because I am such a sinful creature. The sin is present only in finite beings and not present in any portion of the Godhead which is eternal. This is why I believe in the immutability of Christ, He, even in the flesh could not have sinned. His will and purpose were and are in full agreement with that of God the Father. That will and purpose of man is not in such agreement, even in some cases as believers we have a problem here. Rom. 7; 8.5-13].
Originally posted by Me2:
is this what your referring to.
or maybe on some regenerative deathbed confession?
where is the regeneration?
where is the quickening?
I do not know when/where God will send forth the Holy Spirit to quicken those who are dead in trespasses and sins, but I trust Him to do so as long as this present age remains. [John 3.7 & 8]. Each of these (though I view them the same) are worked in the heart, they are circumcision of the heart made without hands.
what purpose would their lives serve afterdeath if no continuing acts of quickening and conversion occurred?
All things work for the good of those who love God, even as this is true so it is true that all things will work for the praise of the Glory of His Grace and this throughtout eternity. [Rom. 8.28]
Bro. Dallas
