Discussing/Debating beliefs

[StefanM]

Why is it so? Countless believers have grappled with it. Confessionals attempt to phrase it.

How is this different from saying God authored Sin?

I just don't like the term. But sure, I think the Bible depicts God as the author of sin.

 

[Agent47]

I just don't like the term.

So it's all about preference. Ok.

But sure, I think the Bible depicts God as the author of sin.

What would you say of someone who holds on to all you said but at the same time vehemently denies God authored Sin?

Thank you so much for your worthy contribution.

 

[StefanM]

So it's all about preference. Ok.

What would you say of someone who holds on to all you said but at the same time vehemently denies God authored Sin?

Thank you so much for your worthy contribution.

I'd disagree with them on that point. What else is there to say?

 

[Agent47]

I'd disagree with them on that point. What else is there to say?

Would you say they are inconsistent?

I mean is it possible to believe all that and not to charge God with authoring Sin?

 

[StefanM]

Would you say they are inconsistent?

I mean is it possible to believe all that and not to charge God with authoring Sin?

It's possible to believe just about anything, so I'm not going to say that it isn't possible.

I do think some of the "author of sin" denials are inconsistent, yes.

 

[Agent47]

It's possible to believe just about anything, so I'm not going to say that it isn't possible.

Valid point. I meant is it possible to believe all you have and conclude God as not authoring sin

I do think some of the "author of sin" denials are inconsistent, yes.

Ok. Thank you.

 

[JonC]

The problem arises at the use of the word "will". Depending on its context it can mean different things. In one case it means allow, in another it means decreed or intentionally set forth. In the context of allowing it does not mean a proactive participant it means an authority that may not necessarily want it but is willing to allow it. The other means that the activities were imposed on others or things.

Honestly I do not see that hashing out those things help anyone. It makes some feel smart to think they are able to understand that which was never really explained but it never adds to one's salvation or growth as a Christian.

God created us, mans rebelled and deserves death, God mediated and provide for our salvation. Beyond that it is above our pay grade and only endeavors to create strife. The problem is not just how we debate that creates this strife but what we debate over. In all of this debating and trying to prove one's positions we forget that God thoughts are not our thoughts and God's ways are not our ways. So we try to prove to others what we believe, belittle those with whom disagree with us, call names, taunt others who ignore our unwillingness to engage in their childishness etc. We become puffed up with pride and forget our place under God. Lord knows I have done this myself.

It does not promote peace, brotherly love, or godliness.

Here let's just throw the idea of predestination out the window and deal with God knowing that Adam would sin. This is what I was speaking of (pre-knowledge) because it is whete A47 agreed.

Does God know, before he created Adam, that when placed in the Garden Adam will sin? If so then does God create Adam, plant the Garden, and put Adam in the Garden with the tree and the serpent all the while knowing for certain what will become of the situation? If so, then it is impossible that God was unwilling for the Fall to occur. In fact, that God is Righteous and at the same time willing that the Fall occur speaks of greater purpose.

 

[Revmitchell]

Here let's just throw the idea of predestination out the window and deal with God knowing that Adam would sin. This is what I was speaking of (pre-knowledge) because it is whete A47 agreed.

Does God know, before he created Adam, that when placed in the Garden Adam will sin? If so then does God create Adam, plant the Garden, and put Adam in the Garden with the tree and the serpent all the while knowing for certain what will become of the situation? If so, then it is impossible that God was unwilling for the Fall to occur. In fact, that God is Righteous and at the same time willing that the Fall occur speaks of greater purpose.

The answer to those questions are for the most part unknowable.

 

[JonC]

The answer to those questions are for the most part unknowable.

They are nonsense questions (like asking "what if Jesus decided not to go to the cross?"). Nothing is gained from them but the guy kept on wanting an answer.

 

[Agent47]

They are nonsense questions (like asking "what if Jesus decided not to go to the cross?"). Nothing is gained from them but the guy kept on wanting an answer.

Steer clear of 'nonsense questions' and threads.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'd modify that a bit.

Premises:
1) God perfectly knows the circumstances under which Adam would or would not sin.
2) God knows that in his planned creation, Adam will certainly sin.
3) God has the power to create an environment in which Adam will not sin.
4) God creates an environment in which he knows Adam will certainly sin.

Conclusion:
God wanted/willed Adam to sin.

This doesn't answer the question of why, though. Many of us do things we would not otherwise do because of another preferred outcome. For instance, employment. Many people do not like their jobs and would not do them except for the fact that they need a paycheck to meet their needs and desires.

Also, I don't enjoy disciplining my children, but I do so because of the great need for them to receive proper instruction.

WRONG!.
God created the very bes conditions, and created Adam s morally pure agent, and he permitted the Fall in order to have all things work out for the best by the Cross in the end!.
God si light, in Him NO dakness..

 

[Yeshua1]

I think it's a pointless term from the WCF. I'd say that the Bible seems to indicate that God is the ultimate reason that sin exists.

Nope, not evn hinted at in the Bible!

 

[Yeshua1]

Then saying God authored Sin shouldn't be a problem, right?

It is , as Giod CANNOT do aythingainst His divine nature/attributes...

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is one example:

You and I have already agreed that (regardless of predestination or decree...based solely on pre-knowledge) God willingly took Adam and placed Adam in the Garden knowing for certain the outcome.

I believe that since God willingly took Adam and placed Adam in the Garden, knowing that Adam would fall and introduce sin into the world, that God was willing for Adam to sin.

You believe that since God willingly took Adam and placed Adam in the Garden, knowing that Adam would fall and introduce sin into the world, that God was not willing for Adam to sin otherwise God authored that sin.

Wou;ln't it help on this discussion if we all agreed that at our best, we still know little compared to the Lord, that He explained to us things at our levels, and that He knows all things, so what happened in he Fall we can know to a degree, but not in absolute sense?

 

[StefanM]

WRONG!.
God created the very bes conditions, and created Adam s morally pure agent, and he permitted the Fall in order to have all things work out for the best by the Cross in the end!.
God si light, in Him NO dakness..

Working out the best by having most of humanity burning in hell?
With foreknowledge and omnipotence, that's a plan, not merely something "permitted" as if he were almost uninvolved.

 

[JonC]

Working out the best by having most of humanity burning in hell?
With foreknowledge and omnipotence, that's a plan, not merely something "permitted" as if he were almost uninvolved.

I think that there is far too much left undefined. God created the best conditions...for what? Rain, Snow, man, God, the planet, redemption, his glory, etc.

The first step, I suppose, should be to determine the purpose of redemption and perhaps the obligation that God may have as Creator towards those he creates.

This thread has been plagued with inconsistencies, illogical conclusions, undefined terms, etc. from the start. Perhaps it tried to encompass too much.

 

[Yeshua1]

Working out the best by having most of humanity burning in hell?
With foreknowledge and omnipotence, that's a plan, not merely something "permitted" as if he were almost uninvolved.

We have idea on how many will get saved by the Lord, but we do know that it will be number great, from every tribe'tongue/nation, and the Lord had every right to allo all to be damned!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that there is far too much left undefined. God created the best conditions...for what? Rain, Snow, man, God, the planet, redemption, his glory, etc.

The first step, I suppose, should be to determine the purpose of redemption and perhaps the obligation that God may have as Creator towards those he creates.

This thread has been plagued with inconsistencies, illogical conclusions, undefined terms, etc. from the start. Perhaps it tried to encompass too much.

Think biggest problem has been all of us with our puny minds are trying to fully understnd te ways and workings on his issue!

 

[StefanM]

We have idea on how many will get saved by the Lord, but we do know that it will be number great, from every tribe'tongue/nation, and the Lord had every right to allo all to be damned!

An omniscient and omnipotent god who would create a world in which every person without exception would be tormented forever hits levels of sadism that one cannot even fathom.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

An omniscient and omnipotent god who would create a world in which every person without exception would be tormented forever hits levels of sadism that one cannot even fathom.

On the contrary, if God condemned every person in the world to hell, He would be entirely just, because all men have sinned (Romans 3:23). What He would not be is merciful.
If even one person is saved, God is merciful, because that person is receiving mercy.
However, we know that there is a vast crowd of people, so huge that no one can number it, that will be saved (Revelation 7:9). So we praise God for His wonderful mercy and grace, which is what the Bible does regularly.

What I would like is for Agent 47 to tell us whether he thinks that crowd would get bigger or smaller if
a. Man had free will (whatever that may be).
b. If there were not Irresistible Grace.

And why he thinks so.