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Discussion of Predestination

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    James,
    Not to get into a word game here, but the post you quoted says "God gave man the capacity to make moral choices." I guess what I am failing to understand is how can man make a good choice when there is nothing good in us?
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Sorry to jump in, and even more sorry to jump in with an old inadequate analogy. But it's like we have the ability to choose whatever food we eat. But it is in our nature to choose to eat junk food only. So that's all we choose to eat.

    Our ability to choose otherwise may seem purely academic, since we will never choose otherwise. But the important point is that God is not actively restricting us from making a good choice, nor is God forcing us to make bad choices. It is simply against our nature to make good choices, thanks to the spiritually dead sin nature we inherited from Adam.

    (Yes, there are cases where God actively restricts us from making good choices - hardening our [man's] hearts for His own good purpose, but that's another story.)
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Who ever came up with a definition like that of "choose"? We have a right to choose good but we never will is nothing but double talk in all honesty. You want to say we have no "choice" but cannot bring yourself to just say it is the way I read that answer.
     
  4. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    I think it would do us good to back up and look at our basic understanding of Total Depravity.

    What it is not: That men are as bad as they can be.

    What it is: That even our "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" in God's site; the moral good that man may do is lacking in Godly motivation by nature; the moral acts of fallen man is a result of legal and social constraint.
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Some of the problem here seems to be the definition of "good" Jesus even said why do you call Me good? That is for the Father. So when one comes out and says we make "good" or bad choices, that implies a Godly choice. Even if you want to call a favorable choice good, it is not Godly as npet said.

    Whatever choice we make that is good is only made after regeneration. Any choice made before that, or by the unelect, is self centered and worldly. It may seem a good choice to the world, it may be a choice that keeps you out of jail, or keeps your job. It is not a choice motivated by a love for God.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Aren't you the guys who say that "dead is dead", and "man will only choose what his nature allows". That sounds to me like we are as bad as we can be.
     
  7. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    I think Saturn covered that protest pretty well:

    "Any choice made before that, or by the unelect, is self centered and worldly. It may seem a good choice to the world, it may be a choice that keeps you out of jail, or keeps your job. It is not a choice motivated by a love for God."
     
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    He had to be talking about righteous choices for if its our sinful nature that keeps us from making the "good" choices he is speaking of, it cannot not be choices such as choosing to walk across the road.
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Well said.
     
  10. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    In reading through A. W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God in the forth chapter he states exactly what I have been asserting all along.

    Here Pink emphasizes the free moral agency of man and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation. What is even more helpful is that he suggests there is a need to separate this discussion from the human side and the divine side. If Arminians believe the same gospel that Calvinist believe and yet there is such a great difference of opinion perhaps it is due in part to each theological camp mainly giving emphasis to each of the two respective sides, ie human and divine.

    Granted there are some issues that are not simply semantical nuances, there are in fact great differences in substance. Yet I believe that too often there are times when we are really just describing the same event from different perspectives....

    I once had a great man of God tell me that heaven is like this, from an earthly perspective the entrance into heaven reads "Who so ever will may come" but from inside of heaven looking back it reads on the other side "Mine chosen from the beginning of time."
     
    #110 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2006
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...how is this not talking out of both sides of your mouth? God has set eternity into the hearts of ALL men (Ecc. 3:11).
     
  12. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    PBT,
    Give it up. Learn the Bible. Learn what sovereignty of God means. Choose one side or the other. Dont speak out both sides. Good choices of unsaved men?????? elect and unelect are the same?????? What is going on here????
     
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Is Heaven speaking both ways too???
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Ok, now its so clear, he was elected before he made a good choice.
     
  15. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    (i)nept,

    I am sorry you are so bitter toward me but if you suggest that I need to learn my Bible, I guess A. W. Pink needs to learn his Bible as well...:laugh:



    A. W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 4, The Sovereignty of God in Salvation


    If anyone needs to read the Bible, it is you, try starting with Matthew 18.

    The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
    And when you are done learning that lesson then go to Romans 14.

    Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
    He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones...:saint:
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree, if he holds to that, he does.
     
  17. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    Perspective: Inside Heaven (Divine); Outside Heaven (Human)

    There are two perspectives to election, one human and one divine.

    As A. W. Pink suggests:

    Both perspectives need to be understood.:thumbs:
     
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I thought you knew you can't worship God in the Flesh or with a carnal mind, but only in Spirit and truth.
     
  19. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    God created humans in order that they might worship him in Spirit and in truth. Yet you and I are not what we one day will be, so there is still very much that is yet to be determined by us that will one day be made known to us. See 1 Cor. 13

     
  20. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I appreciate your suggestions, and have read Matthew 18 and Romans 14 often. It is hard to see how that relates to you walking a thin line between God's sovereignty and free will.

    No doubt Mr Pink was a fine man and theologean. He read the Bible like the rest of us and drew his own conclusions. And guess what? Each of us with the Holy Spirit can do the same thing. Reading the Bible is preferable to copy and pasting long dead preacher's writings.

    I hope that the poster in another thread which said that you are using your Dad's profile is not true, because I would think God would not take such lightly. I have known lots of pastors, and disagreed with some, but never have they waivered between one side and the other, and have yet to meet one with a chip on his shoulder.
     
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