Discussion of Predestination

[saturneptune]

James,
Not to get into a word game here, but the post you quoted says "God gave man the capacity to make moral choices." I guess what I am failing to understand is how can man make a good choice when there is nothing good in us?

 

[npetreley]

James,
Not to get into a word game here, but the post you quoted says "God gave man the capacity to make moral choices." I guess what I am failing to understand is how can man make a good choice when there is nothing good in us?

Sorry to jump in, and even more sorry to jump in with an old inadequate analogy. But it's like we have the ability to choose whatever food we eat. But it is in our nature to choose to eat junk food only. So that's all we choose to eat.

Our ability to choose otherwise may seem purely academic, since we will never choose otherwise. But the important point is that God is not actively restricting us from making a good choice, nor is God forcing us to make bad choices. It is simply against our nature to make good choices, thanks to the spiritually dead sin nature we inherited from Adam.

(Yes, there are cases where God actively restricts us from making good choices - hardening our [man's] hearts for His own good purpose, but that's another story.)

 

[Brother Bob]

Sorry to jump in, and even more sorry to jump in with an old inadequate analogy. But it's like we have the ability to choose whatever food we eat. But it is in our nature to choose to eat junk food only. So that's all we choose to eat.

Our ability to choose otherwise may seem purely academic, since we will never choose otherwise. But the important point is that God is not actively restricting us from making a good choice, nor is God forcing us to make bad choices. It is simply against our nature to make good choices, thanks to the spiritually dead sin nature we inherited from Adam.

(Yes, there are cases where God actively restricts us from making good choices - hardening our [man's] hearts for His own good purpose, but that's another story.)

Who ever came up with a definition like that of "choose"? We have a right to choose good but we never will is nothing but double talk in all honesty. You want to say we have no "choice" but cannot bring yourself to just say it is the way I read that answer.

 

[J.D.]

I think it would do us good to back up and look at our basic understanding of Total Depravity.

What it is not: That men are as bad as they can be.

What it is: That even our "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" in God's site; the moral good that man may do is lacking in Godly motivation by nature; the moral acts of fallen man is a result of legal and social constraint.

 

[saturneptune]

Some of the problem here seems to be the definition of "good" Jesus even said why do you call Me good? That is for the Father. So when one comes out and says we make "good" or bad choices, that implies a Godly choice. Even if you want to call a favorable choice good, it is not Godly as npet said.

Whatever choice we make that is good is only made after regeneration. Any choice made before that, or by the unelect, is self centered and worldly. It may seem a good choice to the world, it may be a choice that keeps you out of jail, or keeps your job. It is not a choice motivated by a love for God.

 

[webdog]

What it is not: That men are as bad as they can be.

Aren't you the guys who say that "dead is dead", and "man will only choose what his nature allows". That sounds to me like we are as bad as we can be.

 

[J.D.]

Aren't you the guys who say that "dead is dead", and "man will only choose what his nature allows". That sounds to me like we are as bad as we can be.

I think Saturn covered that protest pretty well:

"Any choice made before that, or by the unelect, is self centered and worldly. It may seem a good choice to the world, it may be a choice that keeps you out of jail, or keeps your job. It is not a choice motivated by a love for God."

 

[Brother Bob]

Our ability to choose otherwise may seem purely academic, since we will never choose otherwise. But the important point is that God is not actively restricting us from making a good choice, nor is God forcing us to make bad choices. It is simply against our nature to make good choices, thanks to the spiritually dead sin nature we inherited from Adam.

He had to be talking about righteous choices for if its our sinful nature that keeps us from making the "good" choices he is speaking of, it cannot not be choices such as choosing to walk across the road.

 

[npetreley]

Some of the problem here seems to be the definition of "good" Jesus even said why do you call Me good? That is for the Father. So when one comes out and says we make "good" or bad choices, that implies a Godly choice. Even if you want to call a favorable choice good, it is not Godly as npet said.

Whatever choice we make that is good is only made after regeneration. Any choice made before that, or by the unelect, is self centered and worldly. It may seem a good choice to the world, it may be a choice that keeps you out of jail, or keeps your job. It is not a choice motivated by a love for God.

Well said.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

In reading through A. W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God in the forth chapter he states exactly what I have been asserting all along.

...Then do you not see that it is due to no lack of power in God, nor to His refusal to coerce man, that other rebels are not saved too? If God was able to subdue your will and win your heart, and that without interfering with your moral responsibility, then is He not able to do the same for others? Assuredly He is....Why is it that all are not saved, particularly all who hear the Gospel? Do you still answer, Because the majority refuse to believe? Well, that is true, but it is only a part of the truth. It is the truth from the human side. But there is a Divine side too, and this side of the truth needs to be stressed or God will be robbed of His glory. The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe; the others are saved because they believe. But why do these others believe? What is it that causes them to put their trust in Christ? Is it because they are more intelligent than their fellows, and quicker to discern their need of salvation? Perish the thought-"Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (1 Cor. 4:7). It is God Himself who maketh the difference between the elect and the non-elect, for of His own it is written, "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" (1 John 5:20).

Here Pink emphasizes the free moral agency of man and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation. What is even more helpful is that he suggests there is a need to separate this discussion from the human side and the divine side. If Arminians believe the same gospel that Calvinist believe and yet there is such a great difference of opinion perhaps it is due in part to each theological camp mainly giving emphasis to each of the two respective sides, ie human and divine.

Granted there are some issues that are not simply semantical nuances, there are in fact great differences in substance. Yet I believe that too often there are times when we are really just describing the same event from different perspectives....

I once had a great man of God tell me that heaven is like this, from an earthly perspective the entrance into heaven reads "Who so ever will may come" but from inside of heaven looking back it reads on the other side "Mine chosen from the beginning of time."

 

[webdog]

Our ability to choose otherwise may seem purely academic, since we will never choose otherwise. But the important point is that God is not actively restricting us from making a good choice, nor is God forcing us to make bad choices.

...how is this not talking out of both sides of your mouth? God has set eternity into the hearts of ALL men (Ecc. 3:11).

 

[saturneptune]

PBT,
Give it up. Learn the Bible. Learn what sovereignty of God means. Choose one side or the other. Dont speak out both sides. Good choices of unsaved men?????? elect and unelect are the same?????? What is going on here????

 

[Brother Bob]

I once had a great man of God tell me that heaven is like this, from an earthly perspective the entrance into heaven reads "Who so ever will may come" but from inside of heaven looking back it reads on the other side "Mine chosen from the beginning of time."

Is Heaven speaking both ways too???

 

[saturneptune]

Ok, now its so clear, he was elected before he made a good choice.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

PBT,
Give it up. Learn the Bible. Learn what sovereignty of God means. Choose one side or the other. Dont speak out both sides. Good choices of unsaved men?????? elect and unelect are the same?????? What is going on here????

(i)nept,

I am sorry you are so bitter toward me but if you suggest that I need to learn my Bible, I guess A. W. Pink needs to learn his Bible as well...:laugh:

Perhaps the one Scripture which most emphatically of all asserts the absolute Sovereignty of God in connection with His determining the destiny of His creatures, is the Ninth of Romans. We shall not attempt to review here the entire chapter, but will confine ourselves to verses 21-23- "Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?" These verses represent fallen mankind as inert and as impotent as a lump of lifeless clay. This Scripture evidences that there is "no difference," in themselves, between the elect and the non-elect; they are clay of "the same lump," which agrees with Ephesians 2:3, where we are told that all are by nature "children of wrath."

A. W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 4, The Sovereignty of God in Salvation


If anyone needs to read the Bible, it is you, try starting with Matthew 18.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. 23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servantfell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

And when you are done learning that lesson then go to Romans 14.

Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another

14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own masterthat he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones...:saint:

 

[webdog]

I am sorry you are so bitter toward me but if you suggest that I need to learn my Bible, I guess A. W. Pink needs to learn his Bible as well...:laugh:

I agree, if he holds to that, he does.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Is Heaven speaking both ways too???

Perspective: Inside Heaven (Divine); Outside Heaven (Human)

There are two perspectives to election, one human and one divine.

As A. W. Pink suggests:

Why is it that all are not saved, particularly all who hear the Gospel? Do you still answer, Because the majority refuse to believe? Well, that is true, but it is only a part of the truth. It is the truth from the human side. But there is a Divine side too, and this side of the truth needs to be stressed or God will be robbed of His glory.

Both perspectives need to be understood.:thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

Perspective: Inside Heaven (Divine); Outside Heaven (Human)

I thought you knew you can't worship God in the Flesh or with a carnal mind, but only in Spirit and truth.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I thought you knew you can't worship God in the Flesh or with a carnal mind, but only in Spirit and truth.

God created humans in order that they might worship him in Spirit and in truth. Yet you and I are not what we one day will be, so there is still very much that is yet to be determined by us that will one day be made known to us. See 1 Cor. 13

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

[saturneptune]

I appreciate your suggestions, and have read Matthew 18 and Romans 14 often. It is hard to see how that relates to you walking a thin line between God's sovereignty and free will.

No doubt Mr Pink was a fine man and theologean. He read the Bible like the rest of us and drew his own conclusions. And guess what? Each of us with the Holy Spirit can do the same thing. Reading the Bible is preferable to copy and pasting long dead preacher's writings.

I hope that the poster in another thread which said that you are using your Dad's profile is not true, because I would think God would not take such lightly. I have known lots of pastors, and disagreed with some, but never have they waivered between one side and the other, and have yet to meet one with a chip on his shoulder.