Discussion.

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you in general an anti Baptist Christian?

Is the New Testament Gospel works based?

Galatians 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I’m a Primitive (Original) Baptist Christian

 

[37818]

Unless


If I may, I'd just like to point out the topic Paul speaks about is Justification. For example, the Law was the means of Grace to Israel. The written Law was the form in which the Grace was given. And the Law is for reproof in righteousness. This of course is different than Justification by works, rather, I believe in Justification by Christ alone or Solus Christus in Sola Fide.

Though you had not addressed me friend, I offer my opposition to re-baptizing. This subject resulted in death in times past. If unawares both Catholic and Protestant civil magistrates had anabaptist drowned, at one point in history over 200 drowned at a single time. The allusion given was to making these little ones stumble and tying a millstone around the neck of those that made people doubt their covenantal baptism as if baptism could save them. At times, I believe faith might need strengthening, however, doubting and emphasizing the process of human hands has become a familiar practice. Water does not save, unless Baptismal regeneration was tradition and practice in question.

On the subject of Justification Paul does write about the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles, the Gentiles having the law written in their hearts, unfortunately, said conscience conviction becomes subject to their judgment rather than strict obedience in the corruptible image bearer.

Phew, I felt like writing for a moment. In summation, faith without works is dead, but as Paul conveyed, and I paraphrase the evidence of which is good works, however, the cause was not the doing of anybody but Jesus. Faith was a gift or Grace, in Ephesians chapter 2 the timing of such gift was stated, "you were dead in sin and trespass." As we know, dead men can do nothing for themselves. G-d made us alive or regenerated (rebirth, new birth, birthed from above) in our corruptible state and resulting death. Truly, we who were born in Adam died in Adam.

Shalom

Ephesians 2:8-10, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Christforums]

I’m a Primitive (Original) Baptist Christian

He's particularly Baptist!

J/king

Spurgeon called himself Particular and not Reformed because he himself believed not in the universal catholic church.

 

[Christforums]

Ephesians 2:8-10, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Right, and emphasis, Ephesians 2:1-10:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Also consider, "and that not of yourselves," or and this not of yourselves depending upon translation refers back to the entire Ordo Salutis stated in the opening of Ephesians chapter 1:

This or that was not any of our doing:


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Unless


If I may, I'd just like to point out the topic Paul speaks about is Justification. For example, the Law was the means of Grace to Israel. The written Law was the form in which the Grace was given. And the Law is for reproof in righteousness. This of course is different than Justification by works, rather, I believe in Justification by Christ alone or Solus Christus in Sola Fide.

Though you had not addressed me friend, I offer my opposition to re-baptizing. This subject resulted in death in times past. If unawares both Catholic and Protestant civil magistrates had anabaptist drowned, at one point in history over 200 drowned at a single time. The allusion given was to making these little ones stumble and tying a millstone around the neck of those that made people doubt their covenantal baptism as if baptism could save them. At times, I believe faith might need strengthening, however, doubting and emphasizing the process of human hands has become a familiar practice. Water does not save, unless Baptismal regeneration was tradition and practice in question.

On the subject of Justification Paul does write about the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles, the Gentiles having the law written in their hearts, unfortunately, said conscience conviction becomes subject to their judgment rather than strict obedience in the corruptible image bearer.

Phew, I felt like writing for a moment. In summation, faith without works is dead, but as Paul conveyed, and I paraphrase the evidence of which is good works, however, the cause was not the doing of anybody but Jesus. Faith was a gift or Grace, in Ephesians chapter 2 the timing of such gift was stated, "you were dead in sin and trespass." As we know, dead men can do nothing for themselves. G-d made us alive or regenerated (rebirth, new birth, birthed from above) in our corruptible state and resulting death. Truly, we who were born in Adam died in Adam. The evidence of being made alive or regenerated is faith and evidence of faith is good works.

Shalom

Ahh, your not a Pelagian, good there are some on this board that are. I ignore them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He's particularly Baptist!

J/king

Spurgeon called himself Particular and not Reformed because he himself believed not in the universal catholic church.

Yes, very much so.

 

[JonC]

He's particularly Baptist!

J/king

Spurgeon called himself Particular and not Reformed because he himself believed not in the universal catholic church.

I think many Baptists want to distance themselves from the Reformed (to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church).

But most of these are a blend of Reformed doctrine and Baptistic doctrine.

The Primitive Baptist Church started in the United States (they withdrew from other Baptists over several issues, to include mission boards, societies). They are distinctly reformed as their view of Jesus' work originated with Calvin and was further developed by the Presbyterian Church.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing (I believe their position incorrect, but the method of borrowing doctrine is not in itself problematic).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

On grace or on Christ as this mercy?

If on grace apart from Christ then I agree it is different. Many churches see Christ as merely a tool the Father used.

But if Christ is the Source of this grace then there is no difference.

God saved us to do good works prepared beforehand that we should fo them.

Come on, Christ is our Lord and Savior so of course Christ is our Grace and Mercy. And that statement doesn’t exclude Devine Love.

 

[Christforums]

I think many Baptists want to distance themselves from the Reformed (to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church).

But most of these are a blend of Reformed doctrine and Baptistic doctrine.

The Primitive Baptist Church started in the United States (they withdrew from other Baptists over several issues, to include mission boards, societies). They are distinctly reformed as their view of Jesus' work originated with Calvin and was further developed by the Presbyterian Church.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing (I believe their position incorrect, but the method of borrowing doctrine is not in itself problematic).

Interestingly, to substantiate what you said, the Westminster Confession of Faith was written for the Baptist but the Baptist went London Baptist, and the Presbyterians of the Reformed denominations went w/ the Westminster and/or Three forms of Unity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think many Baptists want to distance themselves from the Reformed (to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church).

But most of these are a blend of Reformed doctrine and Baptistic doctrine.

The Primitive Baptist Church started in the United States (they withdrew from other Baptists over several issues, to include mission boards, societies). They are distinctly reformed as their view of Jesus' work originated with Calvin and was further developed by the Presbyterian Church.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing (I believe their position incorrect, but the method of borrowing doctrine is not in itself problematic).

Where are you getting your information from??

 

[JonC]

Come on, Christ is our Lord and Savior so of course Christ is our Grace and Mercy. And that statement doesn’t exclude Devine Love.

Exactly. Christ is our grace

That is what I mean when I say a church based in Christ is a church based in grace.

 

[JonC]

Where are you getting your information from??

About Primitive Baptists beginning in the United States when they split from the "original" Baptists? From history.

About Primitive Baptists holding a view of Jesus' work that originated with Calvin's reform of Aquinas' work? From historical theology and the fact that the Primitive Baptist view of Jesus' work first appeared with Calvin.

About many Baptist churches desiring to distance themselves from the Reformers *and Roman Catholic Doctrine)? From reading the writings of men like J.R. Graves, Jesse Lee, Bernard Gowens, and Daniel Parker....as well as reading threads on this forum.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Interestingly, to substantiate what you said, the Westminster Confession of Faith was written for the Baptist but the Baptist went London Baptist, and the Presbyterians of the Reformed denominations went w/ the Westminster and/or Three forms of Unity.

We don’t have that, we don’t have conventions, we don’t identify as Calvinists and we do not believe in Absolute Predestination.

 

[Christforums]

We don’t have that, we don’t have conventions, we don’t identify as Calvinists and we do not believe in Absolute Predestination.

Never heard of the term Absolute Predestination.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

About Primitive Baptists beginning in the United States when they split from the "original" Baptists? From history.

About Primitive Baptists holding a view of Jesus' work that originated with Calvin's reform of Aquinas' work? From historical theology and the fact that the Primitive Baptist view of Jesus' work first appeared with Calvin.

About many Baptist churches desiring to distance themselves from the Reformers *and Roman Catholic Doctrine)? From reading the writings of men like J.R. Graves, Jesse Lee, Bernard Gowens, and Daniel Parker....as well as reading threads on this forum.

You then need a crash course in PB Doctrines and History. Contact Chris Crouse at Little Union Primitive Baptist Church or listen to the sermons by about 30 different elders that are recorded on the website. We will make you a PB yet dear brother.

PS: I’m not sure that there are any Old Schoolers left on this BB site save Kentuckyredneck and yours truly. But I’m sure Chris could answer the bulk of your questions and concerns.

Little Union Primitive Baptist Church – Lithia, FL

 

[JonC]

You then need a crash course in PB Doctrines and History. Contact Chris Crouse at Little Union Primitive Baptist Church or listen to the sermons by about 30 different elders that are recorded on the website. We will make you a PB yet dear brother.

PS: I’m not sure that there are any Old Schoolers left on this BB site save Kentuckyredneck and yours truly. But I’m sure Chris could answer the bull of your questions and concerns.

I think @tyndale1946 is still around.

 

[JonC]

Never heard of the term Absolute Predestination.

It is the doctrine that God predestined people to be saved or remain lost prior to Creation.

The term "Absolute Predestination" is just the translated title of a defence of Calvinism written in the 16th century by Jerome Zanchius.

Primitive and Landmark Baptists sometimes mistake this to mean every facit of life is determined by God to occur in order to distance themselves from Calvinism.

There are very few Baptists uninfluenced by the Reformers. Even many Mennonites have adopted a Calvinist (although free-will) form of Jesus' work.

I think the only group that could be called "Baptist" that may still exist today uninfluenced by Reformed doctrine are the Amish, and maybe some Mennonite sects. These are groups that existed seperate from the Roman Catholic Church, and they have to a large extent preserved their doctrine by separation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Never heard of the term Absolute Predestination.

Or total predestination (of all things) we believe that predestination only concerns Gods involvement with his children when salvation is the concern… it’s scriptural in 4 places. In other words, it does not concern every little thing involving our lives thus giving us the ability to make the bulk of our own decisions… like for example, I fall allot without my cane ( God doesn’t cause me to fall) it’s my own dumb choice to walk without the darn stupid thing.

 

[Christforums]

Or total predestination (of all things) we believe that predestination only concerns Gods involvement with his children when salvation is the concern… it’s scriptural in 4 places. In other words, it does not concern every little thing involving our lives thus giving us the ability to make the bulk of our own decisions… like for example, I fall allot without my cane ( God doesn’t cause me to fall) it’s my own dumb choice to walk without the darn stupid thing.

That is my understanding of the doctrine of Predestination as well the emphasis of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints. If I might add, predestination only concerns the Elect, that is, their salvation to heaven and not the reprobate. Some believe predestination concerns the reprobate (and absolute destination to hell) and is a misunderstanding. G-d passes over the reprobate leaving them to their Pelagian doctrine to stand before G-d by their own merit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think @tyndale1946 is still around.

Wrong again… but you can always call him and attempt to lure him back,,, he is a mentor of mine and a fine gentlemen & I miss him dearly.