prophecy70
Active Member
Please provide the verses. What Israel are you talking about?
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Dispensational Things...pt2
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Please provide the verses. What Israel are you talking about?
prophecy70
Active Member
Again verse.
Zachariah 13:1
Ezekiel 37:1-44
prophecy70
Active Member
Not about the second coming. Try again.
prophecy70
Active Member
This was written during the Babylonian exile. The main purpose of this was bringing the Jews back to promised Land.
John said:
John's 2nd & 3rd correspond to my 2nd - antediluvian age.
I think you are alluding to Romans 1 & 2 -John said:
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
That "dispensation" or state of affairs according to conscience, overruled by providence, continues until Jesus returns. 2:14-15 doesn't teach salvation by law-keeping for ignorant Gentiles, but by the providence of God, what is often called "common grace," people around the world do have a self regulating conscience, whereby they live in peace, marry & have families & are self supporting. Sadly that state of affairs gets totally disrupted by selfishness & a desire to rule others - a corrupted vestige of God-given dominion aka stewardship.
Some of the antediluvians were saved by grace & are recorded in Hebrews 11.
We see the rise of corrupt stewardship in Nimrod - the first king - & Babel & the degradation of the Canaanite tribes. Also in the development of weapons of war.
We see also the rule of providencial stewardship in the growth of science, horticultural implements, animal domestication, farming, transport & civilisation generally.
We see grace in Abram & Lot, In the Egyptians who joined with Israel, Rahab, Ruth, Naaman, the widows of Elijah & Elisha's time.
That providential grace was evident after the various dispersions of the Israelites, in the hundreds of years before Christ, resulting in synagogues around the Mediterranean & beyond Babylon. These were in effect local churches meeting for reading the Law & singing Psalms. Jews & proselytes from these ecclesia came to Jerusalem at Pentecost. Paul & Barnabas went to these to preach the Gospel.
Why do so many have such a problem with viewing these “ignorant Gentiles” as ‘regenerate’, Jews inwardly’ [v 29], with ‘the law written in their hearts’ being synonymous with ‘circumcision of heart’ [v 29]?
This flows with the text.
Why do so many have such a problem with “their conscience bearing witness therewith” [v 15] intended in the same vein as “my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit” [9:1]?
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, Ro 9
That is correct. Dispensationalism does not teach that the stewardship is taken away when mankind fails to fulfill it. Conscience is one stewardship that remained even though a new dispensation came along.
John - 3. Human Government (Gen. 9:6), beginning with Noah
Ian - 3. Babel anarchy - continuing for mankind until Pentecost, & in a sense continuing until Jesus returns;
That was a quick, wrong answer - I'll correct it -
3. Rule of God by covenant, providence & grace, Gen. 9, with man restrained by "common grace" so that the wickedness of mankind does not progress to total anarchy as it did in the antediluvian period.
Thus the plan to unite & build Babel was frustrated by God's providential action in confounding their language.
See my previous post for the way God's providential reign operates. Disp 3 continues for the unregenerate mankind in general until Jesus returns, except that God's covenant plans of redemption are progressively revealed, beginning with Abram - Gen. 12.
Human government continues until Jesus returns. It's not limited to Noah to Abram.
Ian - 3. Babel anarchy - continuing for mankind until Pentecost, & in a sense continuing until Jesus returns;
That was a quick, wrong answer - I'll correct it -
3. Rule of God by covenant, providence & grace, Gen. 9, with man restrained by "common grace" so that the wickedness of mankind does not progress to total anarchy as it did in the antediluvian period.
Thus the plan to unite & build Babel was frustrated by God's providential action in confounding their language.
See my previous post for the way God's providential reign operates. Disp 3 continues for the unregenerate mankind in general until Jesus returns, except that God's covenant plans of redemption are progressively revealed, beginning with Abram - Gen. 12.
Human government continues until Jesus returns. It's not limited to Noah to Abram.
I don't read of a new dispensation in scripture, but I do read of a new covenant.
Correction: you don't read the term "new dispensation" in Scripture, though the term dispensation (Gr. oikonomia) is there seven times. And the two (or three, depending on the theologian) covenants of covenant theology are not in Scripture at all.
So....you believe in the Covenant of Redemption as taught by Covenant Theologians ? The term is not there but the teaching certainly is....
Nope, don't believe it. Why should I when it is nowhere described per se in the Bible, and even covenant theologians don't agree on it? (See Berkhof, p. 265.)
Well that looks like another thread looming in the near future...I do not think men who disagree on this aspect, or that aspect, do away with the teaching in the same way you do not do away with dispensationalism because not all agree.
As long as John 6, and the book of Hebrews, the Book of Isaiah remain in the canon of scripture.. the Covenant of Redemption can be clearly seen and understood.
Actually we are in luck...so to speak. The person who started the OP. believes this could fit into this thread as it will impact and give direction to the idea of a dispensation and or dispensations...
I will bring in these men to assist us in describing the teaching we are speaking of...
The Covenant of Redemption | Monergism
I will start here.....if we discuss what is a Covenant....we find certain language descriptive of the terms of a Divine Covenant;
TrueCovenanter.com: Therapeutica Sacra: Chapter 4: Of the Covenant of Redemption.
1. A divine covenant we call, a contract or paction, wherein God is at least the one party contracter. Of this sort of covenants about the eternal salvation of men (which sort chiefly belong to our purpose) there are three.
The first is, the covenant of redemption, past {23} between God, and Christ God appointed Mediatour, before the world was, in the council of the Trinity.
The second is, the covenant of works, made between God and men, in Adam in his integrity, endued with all natural perfections, enabling him to keep it, so long as it pleased him to stand to the condition.
The third is, the covenant of grace and reconciliation through Christ, made between God and believers (with their children) in Christ.
2. As to the covenant of redemption; for clearing the matter, we must distinguish the sundry acceptions of the word redemption: for, (1.) Sometime it is taken for the contract and agreement of selling and buying-back to eternal salvation, of lost man, looked upon as in the state of sin and misery. In which sense, we are said to be bought by Christ, both souls and bodies, 1 Cor. 6.19,20, Ye are not your own; for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. And this may be called redemption by paction and agreed bargain. (2.) Sometimes redemption is taken for the paying of the price agreed upon. In which sense, Christ is said to have redeemed us, by suffering of the punishment due to us, and ransoming of us, Gal 3.13,Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. (3.) Sometime redemption is taken for the begun application of the benefits purchased in the covenant by the price paid, Eph. 1.7, In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins, according to the riches of His grace. (4.) Sometimeredemption is taken for the perfect and full possession of all the benefits agreed upon between the Father and Christ His Son the Mediator. In which sense, we are said to be sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, Ephes. 1.14. and Ephes. 4.30, it is said, Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption; which is the day of Judgment, when Christ shall put us in full possession of all the blessedness {24} which He purchased by bargain and payment for us.
In this place we take redemption in the first sense, for the covenant past between the Father and Christ His Son, designed Mediatour, about our redemption.
3. When we name the Father as the one party and His Son Christ as the other party in this covenant, we do not seclude the Son and holy Spirit from being the party offended; but do look upon the Father, Son, and Spirit, one God in three Persons, as offended by man's sin; and yet all three contented to take satisfaction to divine justice for man's sin in the Person of the Son, as designed Mediatour, to be incarnate. Whereby the Son is both the party offended as God, one essentially with the Father and holy Spirit; and the party contracter also, as God designed Mediatour personally for redeeming man, who with consent of the Father and holy Spirit, from all eternity willed and purposed in the fullness of time, to assume the human nature in personal union with Himself, and for the elect’s sake to become man, and to take the cause of the elect in hand, to bring them back to the friendship of God, and full enjoyment of felicity for evermore.
When therefore we make the Father the one party, and the Son designed mediatour the other party, speaking with the Scripture, for the more easy uptaking of the Covenant, let us look to one God in three Persons, having absolute right and sovereign power according to His own pleasure to dispose of men, looked upon as lying before God (to Whom all things are present) in sin and death, drawn on by man's own deserving, and yet for the glory of his grace resolving to save the elect, so as His justice shall be satisfied for them, in and by the second Person of the Trinity, the co-eternal and co-essential Son of the Father.
4. This covenant of redemption then may be thus described. It is a bargain, agreed upon between the Father and the Son designed Mediatour, concerning the elect (lying {25} with the rest of mankind in the state of sin and death, procured by their own merit) wisely and powerfully to be converted, sanctified and saved, for the Son of God's satisfaction and obedience (in our nature to be assumed by Him) to be given in due time to the Father, even unto the death of the cross.
In this bargain or agreement, the Scripture importeth clearly, a selling and a buying of the elect, Acts 20.28, Feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased by His own blood, 1 Cor. 6.20, ye are bought with a price, and 1 Pet. 1.18. The seller of the elect, is God; the buyer, is God incarnate; the persons bought, are the Church of the elect; the price, is the blood of God, to wit, the blood of Christ, who is God and man in one person.
This covenant of redemption, is in effect one with the eternal decree of redemption, wherein the salvation of the elect, and the way how it shall be brought about is fixed, in the purpose of God, who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own Will, as the Apostle sets it down, Eph. 1, unto the 15th verse.
And the decree of redemption is in effect a covenant, one God in three persons agreeing in the decree, that the second Person, God the Son, should be incarnate, and give obedience and satisfaction to divine justice for the elect: unto which piece of service the Son willingly submitting Himself, the decree becometh a real covenant indeed.
But for further satisfaction, that there is such a covenant between the Father and the Son, as we have said, for redeeming of the elect,
Scripture giveth us evidence six ways.
The first way is by expressions, which import & presuppose a formal covenant between the parties, buying and selling;
the second way is, by styles and titles given to Christ the Redeemer;
the third is, by expressions relating to an eternal decree for execution and performance of the covenant of redemption;
the fourth is, by representation of this covenant in the Levitical types;
the fifth is, by Christ the Redeemer now incarnate, His {26} ratification of the covenant;
and the sixth way is, by holding forth to us the heads and articles agreed upon, wherein the covenant consists.
I will bring in these men to assist us in describing the teaching we are speaking of...
The Covenant of Redemption | Monergism
I will start here.....if we discuss what is a Covenant....we find certain language descriptive of the terms of a Divine Covenant;
TrueCovenanter.com: Therapeutica Sacra: Chapter 4: Of the Covenant of Redemption.
1. A divine covenant we call, a contract or paction, wherein God is at least the one party contracter. Of this sort of covenants about the eternal salvation of men (which sort chiefly belong to our purpose) there are three.
The first is, the covenant of redemption, past {23} between God, and Christ God appointed Mediatour, before the world was, in the council of the Trinity.
The second is, the covenant of works, made between God and men, in Adam in his integrity, endued with all natural perfections, enabling him to keep it, so long as it pleased him to stand to the condition.
The third is, the covenant of grace and reconciliation through Christ, made between God and believers (with their children) in Christ.
2. As to the covenant of redemption; for clearing the matter, we must distinguish the sundry acceptions of the word redemption: for, (1.) Sometime it is taken for the contract and agreement of selling and buying-back to eternal salvation, of lost man, looked upon as in the state of sin and misery. In which sense, we are said to be bought by Christ, both souls and bodies, 1 Cor. 6.19,20, Ye are not your own; for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. And this may be called redemption by paction and agreed bargain. (2.) Sometimes redemption is taken for the paying of the price agreed upon. In which sense, Christ is said to have redeemed us, by suffering of the punishment due to us, and ransoming of us, Gal 3.13,Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. (3.) Sometime redemption is taken for the begun application of the benefits purchased in the covenant by the price paid, Eph. 1.7, In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins, according to the riches of His grace. (4.) Sometimeredemption is taken for the perfect and full possession of all the benefits agreed upon between the Father and Christ His Son the Mediator. In which sense, we are said to be sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, Ephes. 1.14. and Ephes. 4.30, it is said, Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption; which is the day of Judgment, when Christ shall put us in full possession of all the blessedness {24} which He purchased by bargain and payment for us.
In this place we take redemption in the first sense, for the covenant past between the Father and Christ His Son, designed Mediatour, about our redemption.
3. When we name the Father as the one party and His Son Christ as the other party in this covenant, we do not seclude the Son and holy Spirit from being the party offended; but do look upon the Father, Son, and Spirit, one God in three Persons, as offended by man's sin; and yet all three contented to take satisfaction to divine justice for man's sin in the Person of the Son, as designed Mediatour, to be incarnate. Whereby the Son is both the party offended as God, one essentially with the Father and holy Spirit; and the party contracter also, as God designed Mediatour personally for redeeming man, who with consent of the Father and holy Spirit, from all eternity willed and purposed in the fullness of time, to assume the human nature in personal union with Himself, and for the elect’s sake to become man, and to take the cause of the elect in hand, to bring them back to the friendship of God, and full enjoyment of felicity for evermore.
When therefore we make the Father the one party, and the Son designed mediatour the other party, speaking with the Scripture, for the more easy uptaking of the Covenant, let us look to one God in three Persons, having absolute right and sovereign power according to His own pleasure to dispose of men, looked upon as lying before God (to Whom all things are present) in sin and death, drawn on by man's own deserving, and yet for the glory of his grace resolving to save the elect, so as His justice shall be satisfied for them, in and by the second Person of the Trinity, the co-eternal and co-essential Son of the Father.
4. This covenant of redemption then may be thus described. It is a bargain, agreed upon between the Father and the Son designed Mediatour, concerning the elect (lying {25} with the rest of mankind in the state of sin and death, procured by their own merit) wisely and powerfully to be converted, sanctified and saved, for the Son of God's satisfaction and obedience (in our nature to be assumed by Him) to be given in due time to the Father, even unto the death of the cross.
In this bargain or agreement, the Scripture importeth clearly, a selling and a buying of the elect, Acts 20.28, Feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased by His own blood, 1 Cor. 6.20, ye are bought with a price, and 1 Pet. 1.18. The seller of the elect, is God; the buyer, is God incarnate; the persons bought, are the Church of the elect; the price, is the blood of God, to wit, the blood of Christ, who is God and man in one person.
This covenant of redemption, is in effect one with the eternal decree of redemption, wherein the salvation of the elect, and the way how it shall be brought about is fixed, in the purpose of God, who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own Will, as the Apostle sets it down, Eph. 1, unto the 15th verse.
And the decree of redemption is in effect a covenant, one God in three persons agreeing in the decree, that the second Person, God the Son, should be incarnate, and give obedience and satisfaction to divine justice for the elect: unto which piece of service the Son willingly submitting Himself, the decree becometh a real covenant indeed.
But for further satisfaction, that there is such a covenant between the Father and the Son, as we have said, for redeeming of the elect,
Scripture giveth us evidence six ways.
The first way is by expressions, which import & presuppose a formal covenant between the parties, buying and selling;
the second way is, by styles and titles given to Christ the Redeemer;
the third is, by expressions relating to an eternal decree for execution and performance of the covenant of redemption;
the fourth is, by representation of this covenant in the Levitical types;
the fifth is, by Christ the Redeemer now incarnate, His {26} ratification of the covenant;
and the sixth way is, by holding forth to us the heads and articles agreed upon, wherein the covenant consists.
Where is the LOSER rating?
And why no comment on my post #51 which was on topic?
I always knew it was unscriptural.
Continuing on topic -
This dispensation continues through the various law-covenant revelations through Moses, the judges, the kings & prophets until the Seed completes his saving work by his death, resurrection & ascension.
It is revealed in terms of promises regarding Abram's physical descendants & the promised land which ultimately relate to all families on earth in a glorious, righteous new heaven & new earth.
Disp 4. Progressive revelation of the covenant of grace to Abram & his seed that was initially revealed to Noah. God cares for his creation & his people and will restore them to full & perfect fellowship through the promised Seed - the LORD Jesus Christ.
This dispensation continues through the various law-covenant revelations through Moses, the judges, the kings & prophets until the Seed completes his saving work by his death, resurrection & ascension.
It is revealed in terms of promises regarding Abram's physical descendants & the promised land which ultimately relate to all families on earth in a glorious, righteous new heaven & new earth.
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