Dispensational Things...pt2

[kyredneck]

the Gospel cancels the self curse for those who repent

AGREE!

 

[David Kent]

I don't agree with David Kent, as Jesus withdrew from those who wanted to make him king:
John 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

That was before the time was fulfilled, On palm day the disciples and others accepted him and many did at and after Pentecost.

 

[David Kent]

Abraham met the eternal & only King-Priest in Scripture when he met Melchizedek - the most high God.

Not so Ian

• Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
• Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[David Kent]

God would have brought the Kingdom at His first coming to israel, they rejected Him, and so that will come to them at His second coming!

Can you show that from Scripture?

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you show that from Scripture?

Yes
Acts 3:17-23

 

[David Kent]

Yes
Acts 3:17-23

I don't see that supports your post, just the opposite in fact.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't see that supports your post, just the opposite in fact.

How so? peter plainly stated that if Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, would have brought in the Kingdom state back then, but now has to wait until they accept Him at His second coming!

 

[David Kent]

How so? peter plainly stated that if Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, would have brought in the Kingdom state back then, but now has to wait until they accept Him at His second coming!

I still don't see that. Peter was telling them to be converted and receive the gospel, not to wait for a second chance. God doesn't have a plan B, that is not how God works.

 

[Covenanter]

Not so Ian

• Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
• Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There appears to be a textual difference between the TR (KJV) & modern translations based on the MGNT

e.g. NLT Rev. 1:6 He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

TR
καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλεῖς καὶ ἱερεῖς τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν

MGNT
καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν ἱερεῖς τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν

John is quoting Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

LXX ὑμεῖς δὲ ἔσεσθέ μοι βασίλειον ἱεράτευμα καὶ ἔθνος ἅγιον ταῦτα τὰ ῥήματα ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ

Perhaps Greek experts can comment. As the modern Greek agrees with the LXX & presumably the Hebrew, I think it is to be preferred. It makes more sense to me for the redeemed people of God, aka the church, being a kingdom rather than kings.

 

[Covenanter]

Peter stated in Acts that Jesus is being held now in heaven, as God would have brought the Kingdom at His first coming to israel, they rejected Him, and so that will come to them at His second coming!

Yes
Acts 3:17-23

How so? peter plainly stated that if Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, would have brought in the Kingdom state back then, but now has to wait until they accept Him at His second coming!

Read again in Acts 3. What would happen to those who would not hear their Messiah?

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.​

And, of course many thousands of true Israelites aka Jews from all round the world did accept him, & formed the Church. Those who rejected wouldn't survive beyond his coming to judge this generation.

The Church of redeemed Jews & Gentiles now are the prophesied kingdom of priests & holy nation. As Peter writes in 1 Peter 2, & John writes in Rev. 1.

 

[Yeshua1]

I still don't see that. Peter was telling them to be converted and receive the gospel, not to wait for a second chance. God doesn't have a plan B, that is not how God works.

The second coming was not a part B, was ordained from eternity past!
Jews are not given second chance so to speak, its that the Lord Himself has decreed that some of them shalls always be unto Hima faithful remnant, and those who are alive when Jesus returns shall be all saved!

 

[prophecy70]

How so? peter plainly stated that if Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, would have brought in the Kingdom state back then, but now has to wait until they accept Him at His second coming!

Jews are not given second chance so to speak, its that the Lord Himself has decreed that some of them shalls always be unto Hima faithful remnant, and those who are alive when Jesus returns shall be all saved!

That sounds quite contradictory.


And where do you see anything about a remnant in that scripture you provided?

All its saying in the chapters is to repent and follow the messiah and who ever does not is "lost".

 

[Covenanter]

The second coming was not a part B, was ordained from eternity past!
Jews are not given second chance so to speak, its that the Lord Himself has decreed that some of them shalls always be unto Hima faithful remnant, and those who are alive when Jesus returns shall be all saved!

I addressed the "all Israel shall be saved" on another tthread, now closed -

The whole context of Rom. 9-11 shows clearly that Israel and the church are separate--unless you interpret the whole 3 chapters allegorically.

I posted in reply -
Romans 11 - 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved...

Who comprise "all Israel" ? Notice Paul writes "and so" not "and then."

Every Jew?
All Abraham's physical descendants through Isaac & Jacob?
7000 reserved Israelites?
The believing elect remnant of Israel?
All the Israelites living when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in?
All the Israelites who weren't blinded?
Proselytes to Judaism included as "Israel."
Or
All the saved Israelites together with all the saved Gentiles down the ages, who as one redeemed people of God comprise "all Israel" - "all families on earth" - "all nations" ? All according to God's unconditional promise to Abraham.

Paul's quote from Isaaiah 59 is future tense because Paul is quoting, not because Israel is still waiting for the Redeemer to come. He came, he kept his covenant, he took away their sins.

#118Covenanter, Saturday at 12:53 PM

 

[John of Japan]

There appears to be a textual difference between the TR (KJV) & modern translations based on the MGNT

e.g. NLT Rev. 1:6 He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

TR
καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλεῖς καὶ ἱερεῖς τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν

MGNT
καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν ἱερεῖς τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν

John is quoting Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

LXX ὑμεῖς δὲ ἔσεσθέ μοι βασίλειον ἱεράτευμα καὶ ἔθνος ἅγιον ταῦτα τὰ ῥήματα ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ

Perhaps Greek experts can comment. As the modern Greek agrees with the LXX & presumably the Hebrew, I think it is to be preferred. It makes more sense to me for the redeemed people of God, aka the church, being a kingdom rather than kings.

There is a textual difference with the TR, but it is not followed by any other Greek NT, including Byzantine/Majority NTs. The Byzantine Textform Greek NT and the Majority Text Greek NT both agree with the eclectic text & LXX, both directly from the Hebrew which has "a kingdom of priests to God."

The Modern Greek NT actually adds a preposition before "to God," so I don't think you mean the Bible in modern Greek. You are referring to what we call in textual criticism the eclectic text, represented by the United Bible Societies Greek NT (UBS 1 to 4) and Nestle's Greek NT (Nestle's 1-28). The eclectic text is a modern Greek NT edited in the tradition of Westcott and Hort's Greek NT of the late 19th century, but the most recent one strays from the Alexandrian text type more than W & H did.

 

[Covenanter]

There is a textual difference with the TR, but it is not followed by any other Greek NT, including Byzantine/Majority NTs. The Byzantine Textform Greek NT and the Majority Text Greek NT both agree with the eclectic text & LXX, both directly from the Hebrew which has "a kingdom of priests to God."

The Modern Greek NT actually adds a preposition before "to God," so I don't think you mean the Bible in modern Greek. You are referring to what we call in textual criticism the eclectic text, represented by the United Bible Societies Greek NT (UBS 1 to 4) and Nestle's Greek NT (Nestle's 1-28). The eclectic text is a modern Greek NT edited in the tradition of Westcott and Hort's Greek NT of the late 19th century, but the most recent one strays from the Alexandrian text type more than W & H did.

Thanks, John.

 

[Yeshua1]

That sounds quite contradictory.


And where do you see anything about a remnant in that scripture you provided?

All its saying in the chapters is to repent and follow the messiah and who ever does not is "lost".

Paul said that there was even in His day a faithful remnant saved apart in Israel to be saved by faith in Christ as real Messiah. correct?

 

[prophecy70]

Paul said that there was even in His day a faithful remnant saved apart in Israel to be saved by faith in Christ as real Messiah. correct?

Yes and there was at Pentecost and there is every generation. Some are lost but the remnant is saved. What makes it a one time thing at the end?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes and there was at Pentecost and there is every generation. Some are lost but the remnant is saved. What makes it a one time thing at the end?

I see Ezeckiel prophecy of Israel reborn as at time of second coming, as at that time they will mourn over Him whom they pierced, and the fountain of salvation shall be opened up in Jerusalem.

 

[Covenanter]

I see Ezeckiel prophecy of Israel reborn as at time of second coming, as at that time they will mourn over Him whom they pierced, and the fountain of salvation shall be opened up in Jerusalem.

I don't know about Ezekiel's prophecy cited, but Zechariah prophesied the mourning, repentance & baptism that took place at Pentecost. No need to wait thousands of years. NOW is the day of salvation, according to Isaiah & Paul.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know about Ezekiel's prophecy cited, but Zechariah prophesied the mourning, repentance & baptism that took place at Pentecost. No need to wait thousands of years. NOW is the day of salvation, according to Isaiah & Paul.

the prophet saw a time future to Him when israel would come back to God and be reborn to Him, still yet to happen!