I certainly never meant any disrespect for you, and I'm sorry you took it that way. And I still believe my point is entirely valid for anyone (not you, apparently) who believes that the universal (also called invisible) church replaces Israel.
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Dispensationalism - yea or nay.
- Thread starter Wesley Briggman
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Well, someone wrote to the Israelites, because we have the book of Hebrews.
"Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
Jesus taught that the Kingdom was still future, and that its over riding characteristic would be that God's will would be done on earth just as it is in heaven. Perfect obedience by every person. Such is not now and never has been. His Kingdom is yet future.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The kingdom was present when Jesus first preached it. But the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ in the resurrection) takes place on the last day as we enter the new heavens and earth.
Conflating the Kingdoms is a grave error of understanding.
God certainly reigns over all of Creation as King. That is present now, has always been, and will always be.
Christ reigns in the hearts of believers as King. He has, from the time of Adam, so reigned and always will.
Jesus will, in the future, reign over all the earth, and all the people on the earth, who will live in perfect righteousness on earth, just as the saints in Heaven live in perfect righteousness.
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
God certainly reigns over all of Creation as King. That is present now, has always been, and will always be.
Christ reigns in the hearts of believers as King. He has, from the time of Adam, so reigned and always will.
Jesus will, in the future, reign over all the earth, and all the people on the earth, who will live in perfect righteousness on earth, just as the saints in Heaven live in perfect righteousness.
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are missing the restoration of Israel (resurrection) on the last day where we enter the new heavens and earth.
No, I'm not. I just know where, in time, to put it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You're missing the entire end time message of the bible if you ignore the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) that takes place in the resurrection and rapture on the last day, into the new heavens and earth.
Nope. As usual, you have conflated two separate issues and got it exactly backwards too!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Most of scripture points to Israel's restoration (believers in Christ) on the last day along with the rapture into the new heavens and earth. It's all there if you look for it.
What I believe, and what I hope I have stated very clearly in this thread, is that there is only one people of God. If you disagree with that, perhaps you would like to cite John 10:16; Romans 2:25-29; 3:29-30; 9:23-26, and Ephesians 2:14-16 in your reply? When we have resolved this point, we can go on to discuss where this one people is to be found today.
What I don't need is for you to keep telling me that the word 'church' is not found in Romans 9. Believe it or not, I have read the chapter and am well aware of it.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The church (congregation of the Lord) is found over 300 times in the OT. Stephen says; “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
The Nation of Israel assembled in the wilderness was NOT the church.
Acts 7:38 This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living revelations to give to us,
Jesus founded His church, which He promised to build, in the Gospels and it was empowered by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 7:38 This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living revelations to give to us,
Jesus founded His church, which He promised to build, in the Gospels and it was empowered by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Church = Congregation = “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
Honestly I cannot tell whether you just do not understand how words are used differently in differing contexts or are you just being dishonest again.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:37–38)
Church = ③ people with shared belief, community, congregation (for common identity, cp. the community of Pythagoras [Hermippus in Diog. L. 8, 41]. Remarkably, in Himerius, Or. 39 [Or. 5], 5 Orpheus forms for himself τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, a group of wild animals, who listen to him, in the Thracian mountains where there are no people), in our lit. of common interest in the God of Israel.
ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 303). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
If you will start a debate thread to this effect, and I like the OP, I will discuss it with you.
You seem angry about this, and I'm not sure I understand why. The typical non-literal view is that the term "church" represents all believers of all ages, NT or OT. (My historical premil grandfather believed and taught this.) Based on my previous interactions with you (in which you have represented your position well), you seemed to fall in that category. Since you say (if I have you right) you do not believe that the term "church" applies to the true people of God, your view is unique in theology. I have apologized for misrepresenting you.
My belief is: (1) Paul distinguishes carefully between spiritual Israel (those who are actually saved) and spiritually false Israel. (2) that God is at work in history, and He often uses lost people to accomplish His redemptive purposes. That means that Israel as a nation (including lost people) was a chosen people to bring about the advent of the Messiah. I think Rom. 9:1-5 is clear about that.
Dispensationalism is at its core a philosophy of history. Therefore, I look at prophecy as simply future history. In history, which I also teach, we deal with facts (as far as we can ascertain them) and do our best to avoid allegory and figures of speech unless they explain history in a peripheral way.
Do you know how to read a dictionary? Because a lexicon is just that, a dictionary of two languages. "Congregation" vs. "church." You don't understand the difference? The numbers in a dictionary definition represent different meanings for the same word.
Arndt and Gingrich listed these two different meanings for ekklesia. Why? Because the word is polysemous, having more than one meaning. Ergo, OT saints are not in the NT church, since it is a different entity--not simply an "assembly," but the "body of Christ."
The Nation of Israel were all in the same place in the wilderness. "All in the same place" is what "assembly" means in this context."
Act 7:38 This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living revelations to give to us,
39 to whom our fathers wouldn’t be obedient, but rejected him, and turned back in their hearts to Egypt,
40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods that will go before us, for as for this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt, we don’t know what has become of him.’
No church there.
So, according to your theory the town meeting was "the church."
Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another, for the assembly was in confusion. Most of them didn’t know why they had come together.
Act 19:39 But if you seek anything about other matters, it will be settled in the regular assembly.
Act 19:41 When he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.
Act 7:38 This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living revelations to give to us,
39 to whom our fathers wouldn’t be obedient, but rejected him, and turned back in their hearts to Egypt,
40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods that will go before us, for as for this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt, we don’t know what has become of him.’
No church there.
So, according to your theory the town meeting was "the church."
Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another, for the assembly was in confusion. Most of them didn’t know why they had come together.
Act 19:39 But if you seek anything about other matters, it will be settled in the regular assembly.
Act 19:41 When he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If BDAG is not good enough for this, how can you trust any dictionary?
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