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Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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There is but one means, OR.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
Salvation is all of God's grace. The means by which it is received is FAITH.
That is the only means there is.
The RCC has various "means." They are called "sacraments."
What are the "means"? Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
:thumbs::applause::thumbs:you read the Bible the same way I do O.R.it looks like DHK is trying to play pin the work salvation tail on the Calvinist but someone put the blindfold on DhK a little bit too tight
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I haven't seen any other non-Cal's participating. You were the one that started this thread with a quote from me. It was by chance I found it, and felt obligated to defend my self. I take it you can't take a bit of "tongue-in-cheek description of your own position. I don't believe I have ever heard your testimony either. Are you like SBM? You can't give a testimony in fear you might be accused of "salvation of works"?
They are welcome to contribute. In God s providence you found it.You do not have to defend error.You can let it go and start fresh. I have given testimony to God in grace and mercy seeking and saving me.
You did not notice it because I did not walk the aisle.....or raise my hand with every eye closed....no.....God sought me in my sin and rebellion and regenerated me granting repentance and faith.
You cannot stay on the OP because you do not know what we are speaking about.You call the work of the Spirit......a fairy tale????
Then you attempt to accuse me of a works salvation which is very lame.
Jesus explained to Nicodemus that the Spirit works in the unseen realm.....effectually.
You like Nicodemus question how can these things be? The thing is Jesus and the apostles already walked us through it......evidently you were not given the memo??
Check out the fine post of Biblicist....O.R. Con1 Thousand hills.... robust theologian...AA.
Brian.....Kyred....MN jacobs....it will get you up to speed and away from your error.
Teaching and fellowship of believers is a means of correction.
The same reason some deny the supernatural gift of speaking in tongues? Salvation is a supernatural work. Changing us from sinner to child of God is a supernatural act. But it does not take anything more than asking in faith, confessing our sin, and asking Him to save us. There is nothing God can't do, if we simply ask. Of course what we ask for and receive must be in his will for us, and salvation is one of those things he wills for all of us (John 3:16).
I too know that I know that I know he has saved me. Of that there is no doubt. Neither is the evidence of the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit manifested in my life.
Peter supernaturally walked on water then but no one is doing so today.Signs of the Apostles were wrought among the people then but not now.
Any member here is permitted to contribute. You don't own the board. Or did you purchase it from the one that does own it? You don't set the rules.
You are speaking foolishness now. You are making unwarranted assumptions.
I never walked an aisle either. I never raised my hand either. God also sought me out. See all the false assumptions you have made.
The difference lies here. When salvation was presented to me I knew that it was God's gift, and I accepted it as God's gift. I can tell you where, when, who was there, exactly what happened.
Can you do the same? Where and when did you receive God's gift of salvation?
Or is still some mysterious mystic metaphysical inexplicable imaginary "work of the Spirit" that the Bible does not speak of.
The Philippian jailer knew when and where he was saved.
So did the Ethiopian Eunuch.
So did Lydia.
And the list goes on. They all had a testimony, like Paul, of when and where God met them, regenerated them and brought them into a relationship with God. It seems that none of the Calvinists can give a Biblical testimony like that. When did you believe?
When your description of salvation matches up more with the RCC than with the Bible it is more of a fairy tale than Biblical salvation.
Calvin believed in baptismal regeneration.
Luther believed in baptismal regeneration.
Both Calvin and Luther believed in sacramentalism.
Both were liturgical in their worship.
And still you follow these men. Amazing!
The RCC teaches that there are many means of salvation, that is, works.
The Bible teaches that there is one way to Christ, and that is through faith. That is the means. You choose which way you believe. I have presented you the Bible. Your own words condemn you, not I.
You hang on to that verse as if it has some mystic meaning. It doesn't.
It simply means that when the Spirit changes a person there will be fruit, visible fruit. You cannot see the Spirit move but you can see the effect of the Spirit after it is gone, just like the wind. You cannot see the wind, but you can see the effect of the wind after it has passed through. In one who has truly believed you will see the change. You don't see what is taking place at the time. You see the change afterward. That is all that it is teaching.
You never read the rest of the story that Jesus had with Nicodemus did you?
Start with verse 14 and go to verse 18. Concentrate on the meanings of those verses.
Nothing wrong with Biblicist's post. You probably didn't understand it.
I hope you will take from this the needed correction that you have been confronted with. Truth for some is hard to accept. Remember this: The majority is not always right.
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DHK
You are speaking foolishness now. You are making unwarranted assumptions.
I never walked an aisle either. I never raised my hand either. God also sought me out. See all the false assumptions you have made.
The only false assumptions are by you. I did not say I was speaking about you.
Your anti Cal agenda has you on the defensive.
You are speaking foolishness now. You are making unwarranted assumptions.
I never walked an aisle either. I never raised my hand either. God also sought me out. See all the false assumptions you have made.
The only false assumptions are by you. I did not say I was speaking about you.
Your anti Cal agenda has you on the defensive.
DHK
When your description of salvation matches up more with the RCC than with the Bible it is more of a fairy tale ....
I mentioned Jesus teaching in JN 3.......you say it is a fairy tale. ....The work of the Spirit remains a mystery to you.
All the other men here see clearly the teaching and we barely scratched the surface....all except you.
You call names and falsely accuse again:sleeping_2:
When your description of salvation matches up more with the RCC than with the Bible it is more of a fairy tale ....
I mentioned Jesus teaching in JN 3.......you say it is a fairy tale. ....The work of the Spirit remains a mystery to you.
All the other men here see clearly the teaching and we barely scratched the surface....all except you.
You call names and falsely accuse again:sleeping_2:
You were the one that said:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
--I believe that is heresy. That is akin to Catholicism. The Catholic Church has several means to attain salvation; they are called "sacraments." You never defined what your "several means" were. But both Calvin and Luther were also sacramental bringing that baggage over from the RCC. You are the one that follows Calvin and is the ardent defender of his faith.
However, the Bible teaches that there is but one means, one and only one means to attain salvation.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is the means. It is the only means whereby salvation is attained. Now that is what the Bible teaches over and over again: Acts 16:31; 10:43; Eph.2:8,9; Rom.5:1; John 5:23; 3:16-18; 1Cor.15:1-4; etc. Salvation is by faith.
And you say:
I have said quite clearly that salvation is all of God. It is a gift that must be received--God's gift; His gift of salvation. Yes, it is all of God. When have I ever said any differently? Why are you trying to accuse me of believing what I don't believe.
And to add to that: Who is the one using derogatory language here?
["becoming unglued...no grasp...are loosing it..."]
No thank you, Icon. I am still quite sane; I know what I believe. I am not a follower of Calvin and you don't like that. Well, the answer is not to call me names. Read my post. You unjustly accused me of calling you names when I didn't.
I state again: Salvation is: in Christ, through grace, by faith.
--And if you think that that is not scriptural and I don't understand scripture then I am sorry Icon, but it is not me with the problem. There is a lot of truth in John 14:6.
Typical "Icon response." Very condescending words. I am not in error Icon.
Salvation is by grace through faith. You seem to be denying this very basic truth.
In your next post you say:
The only false assumptions are by you. I did not say I was speaking about you.
Your anti Cal agenda has you on the defensive.[/quote]
This answer is basically a "non-answer." You have no defense. You previously answered my post with this response.
"You did not notice it because I did not walk the aisle.....or raise my hand with every eye closed....no.....God sought me in my sin and rebellion and regenerated me granting repentance and faith."
Don't accuse me of false assumptions. I am quoting you almost word for word. You infer that because you are Calvinist, that all non-Cals must walk the aisle and raise their hands, etc. That is your position. Otherwise you would have no reason to post what you just did here.
But the fact is, I didn't do any of those things either. In fact I wasn't even saved within the confines of a local church of any kind. You can't even relate to my salvation experience.
The sad thing is that most of you (Calvinists in general) are unable to give a personal testimony of your salvation. That truly is sad.
You misunderstand. I didn't say that at all. In fact that is an outright lie.
You started this thread with a quote of mine. That quote ended with "I don't believe in fairy tales." Did the quote describe "the new birth"? Is that what you believe the new birth is? Is that what you believe the bible teaches--what that quote says? Really? If you do, then yes it is a fairy tale. That is what was labeled a fairy tale. So be honest. Don't put words in my mouth. At least be honest Icon.
I can clearly explain salvation to you and back it up with the Word of God.
It seems that not only you, but all your Cal friends can't even give a testimony of salvation--when, where, how were you saved?
What if your wife were to ask you the same questions concerning your marriage--when, where, how? Do you remember?
Do you think it might also be important to remember when you became a part of the bride of Christ?
You have made three consecutive posts Icon, this last one accusing me of calling you names. Where did I call you any names?
I think you are reading way to much into the use of 'several means". When I read that I took it at face value that God uses different means for people to hear the Gospel and be saved.
Just some examples off the top of my head,
hearing a preacher in church
hearing someones testimony,
reading the Bible
being handed a track,
one on one evangelism.
Those are all different means in which the Gospel can be delivered to someone.
Just some examples off the top of my head,
hearing a preacher in church
hearing someones testimony,
reading the Bible
being handed a track,
one on one evangelism.
Those are all different means in which the Gospel can be delivered to someone.
Exactly correct.! You see through the silly posting and falsehoods DHK inflicts on everyone.
He is blind to it.:flower:
He cannot make a case so he fabricates what he "infers" I might have said or thought...lol...4 it must be the pressure....lol
DHK
I am not at my keyboard right now.When I will get there I will answer in full to your lies and slander and show once again what is painfully obvious to everyone who has followed your failed efforts.
I am not at my keyboard right now.When I will get there I will answer in full to your lies and slander and show once again what is painfully obvious to everyone who has followed your failed efforts.
I never told any lies. Don't falsely accuse. If the so-called "means" are the "ways" in which Blessedwife described, then why didn't you say so. You could have cleared that up a long time ago.
But the statement:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
doesn't sound like those things like blessedwife has listed.
In the Calvinist's thinking, did God ordain from eternity past "handing out tracts"? That just doesn't fit the context in which you originally used the statement.
The statement has been quoted several times and you have never clarified it. The onus has been on you. Take responsibility!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
What Icon said is totally consistent with what Conner said as I noted earlier.
When DHK can't refute something he labels it "heresy"!
You can show me that in the Institutes of Calvin and the Westminster Confession of Faith. But you can't show me that in the Bible.
God chooses on the basis of man's faith in him.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You believe in sola Calvina; I believe in sola scriptura.
Why not use the Bible instead.
Why did you only quote some of the verse. Here is the whole thing
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God Eph 2:8
Or even better here is some verse around it
4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
What is the gift talking about in verse 8? Granted its been along time since I was in school diagraming sentences but I would say that the IT refers back to Faith. Faith itself is a gift from God, why because men dead in their sins cannot have faith in God.
Yep, I have diagrammed this sentence more than once.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
First thing to note: "it is" is in italics in the KJV meaning it isn't in the original Greek.
But more importantly:
The verse centers around these 3 words Ye are saved, subject and verb.
--through grace is a prepositional phrase modifying the verb; how one is saved.
--by faith, another prepositional phrase modifying the verb, the means by which we are saved.
We are saved through grace by faith.
Hence the topic is salvation.
--and that not of yourselves: Salvation is not of yourselves.
--(it is) the gift of God: Salvation is the gift of God.
--Salvation is not of works.
----Salvation is not of works because one would be boasting about it.
The entire two verses center around "ye are saved," or "salvation."
As verses 8 and 9 speak of salvation, verse 10 speaks of the result of salvation. It tells us why the believer is created, what he should be doing.
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