Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I quoted the bible and you seemed to have an issue with that.
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Divine Justice
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
I quoted the bible and you seemed to have an issue with that.
So we all agree that God will punish sins, God will punish the wicked, and God will justify the ones in Christ.
We still differ about what Justice means insofar as the law as a master over God.
My view:
The law reflects God's nature. It is perfect. But it is not the only manifestation of God's righteousness.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
IF God makes us a new creation and the "old man" is gone (completely at Judgment as we have been conformed into the image of Christ) THEN there is no condemnation under the law.
God is just, under the law, but the requirements of the law are met apart from the law.
We still differ about what Justice means insofar as the law as a master over God.
My view:
The law reflects God's nature. It is perfect. But it is not the only manifestation of God's righteousness.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
IF God makes us a new creation and the "old man" is gone (completely at Judgment as we have been conformed into the image of Christ) THEN there is no condemnation under the law.
God is just, under the law, but the requirements of the law are met apart from the law.
In order to get to the saved being now justified before Holy God, that stored up wrath had to get appeased/satisfied before they could get justified and made new creatures in Christ
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God's wrath was appeased through Christ Jesus,
Rom_3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Heb_2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
1Jn_2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Jn_4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins
All sins, past, present and future were appeased so that those that have placed or will place their faith in God are saved by the grace of God.
Ultimately the question is whether God's wrath is propitiated by Christ or suffered by Christ. I am not sure "appeased" is the correct word. Probably "mediated" would be a better word (it is the word the Bible uses).
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You said Christ came under the bondage of sin! Do you deny saying this? I didn't say it, you did.
Yes. Christ came under the bondage of sin and death. This was our bondage.
Christ bore our sins, He siffered the wages of sin.
But what you said was that "Christ came under bondage".
That is very different from Christ coming under the bondage of sin and death (our bondage). Leaving it simply as "bondage" indicates that Christ did not willingly lay down His life, or that He was bound by something.
That is why I corrected you on the other thread.
John MacArthur was referring to Jesus coming under the law and salvation bring achieved through Christ's death (rather than literal blood).
Luther held that Christ came under the bondage of sin and death, not as we do but willingly wrapped in our sin.
The difference is this was Christ willingly submitting Himself to die on the cross. He was not in bomdage as we would be in bomdage.
I do realize that commentaries can be a bit confusing, especially for a new believer. This is why I always recommend those new to the faith find a mentor.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Exactly what scripture says Christ came under the bondage of sin and death?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In another thread you said "No such thing as Christ became the means of reconciliation!"
Exactly what scripture says Christ was not the means of our reconciliation?
You seem to be quite sure of your position so do you have clear scripture to support your claim, if so what are they?
I have posted verses that say just the opposite:
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
2Co_5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
1 Peter 2:24, Heb 2:14....to name two.
You are so caught up in looking for exact words. This is strange since Scripture was not written in English.
We do not have to use the exact words of any translation. But we do need to make sure that what we are saying is actually in God's Word.
When the Reformers said that "Christ came under the bondage of sin" they used this to mean that Christ bore our sin and suffered under the powers that held us in bondage.
When pastors, like MacArthur, said that in a more contemporary context they mean the same thing.
Sin and death is the bondage that we suffered. Christ bore our sin and died for that sin.
Like I said, you seem very new to the faith. You need to find a more mature mentor. They can walk you through the basics of Christianity. In time you will be able to move on to a more detailed understanding, but you have to get the basics down first. And Christ dying for our sins is one of these basics.
I pull not say "repayment", but yes, the wages of sin is death.
There is not a "demand" for it. Sin begats death, the mind set on the flesh is death.
Piper 2
Active Member
Brightfame52 said:
Exactly what scripture says Christ came under the bondage of sin and death?
1 Peter 2:24 says He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. - Note, nowhere in that verse do I see that Christ was "under the bondage of sin and death."
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Note: that verse does not mention "Under the bondage of sin and death."
Exactly what scripture says Christ came under the bondage of sin and death?
Neither of those verses say that Christ came under the bondage of sin and death. I will stick with the words of scripture.
1 Peter 2:24 says He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. - Note, nowhere in that verse do I see that Christ was "under the bondage of sin and death."
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Note: that verse does not mention "Under the bondage of sin and death."
Good question.
Your mistake is you, like @Brightfame52 , seem to believe (when it suits you) that we have to find exact words in the Bible. I have repeatedly denounced that error. The English Bible is a translation (the Bible was not given, initially, in English but was delivered long before the English language existed).
What we have to do is make sure that our doctrine is actially in the Word of God. It does not matter what words we use, as long as the doctrine is in God's Word.
Hence your question. You have not been able to find, in the Bible, that we were held in bondage to sin and death.
The issue you have is you are looking for an exact word (bondage). The word is συνέκλεισεν (bound up, bondage, imprisioned).
Sin and death are the συνέκλεισεν. We were under the bindage of sin and death.
Jesus Christ bore our sins bodily (this means in His body or in His fleesh). He did not die for His own sins, He is sinless.
When Christians (like Luther) say that Jesus suffered under the bondage of sin and death we do not mean that Jesus was under bondage (as @Brightfame52 thought) but that He suffered under OUR bondage (our sins, the death that we earn because of our sin, the death that sin produces).
Death is produced by sin. It is the power of Satan. It is a συνέκλεισεν (a bondage, it binds us, imprisoned us). And this is what Jesus suffered (He bore our sins, He died for our sins).
Easy mistake, brother. Don't let these little misunderstandings discourage you in studying the Bible.
When you run across language you do not understand, just ask. That is how you will learn.
Piper 2
Active Member
I don't disagree with us being under bondage to sin and death.
You said, and I quote," Christ came under the bondage of sin and death. ." That is not in the Bible.
And no need to be so condescending. I've spent many years studying Greek and Hebrew.
Actually Christ suffered the wrath of God against sin on our behalf.
You said, and I quote," Christ came under the bondage of sin and death. ." That is not in the Bible.
And no need to be so condescending. I've spent many years studying Greek and Hebrew.
Actually Christ suffered the wrath of God against sin on our behalf.
Actually, Christ coming under the bondage of sin and death IS in the Bible.
I understand that you may not be able to find it, but there can only be two reasons (excluding not looking).
The first reason is you are looking for exact words. We make sure the doctrine we believe is actually God's words, but "doctrine" means "teachings" (the meaning). We do not look for exact words. The Bible was not written in English, and words used in translations vary. So it would be foolish for you to think that the words "Christ came under the bondage of sin and death" being in Scripture in order for that doctrine ti be in God's words.
The second reason is you may not grasp what is meant by "the bondage of sin and death" and might focus on "bondage" thinking that this means Jesus was bound by sin ratger than bearing our sin snd dying for our sin by His own will.
What is meant is that Christ willingly came under our bondage of sin and death to free us. This dies not mean Christ was in bondage to sin and death.
But yes, that doctrine is absolutely in the words of God. To deny this is to deny that Christ dying for our sins is in the Word of God.
I would suggest brushing up on theological terms, if it has been awhile, but I do not think this is a theological term. I am surprised you were unfamiliar with the doctrine as it is (or was) common aming the Reformers. But I have not been a Calvinist for over a decade and do not know what words the new guys use.
If it helps you find "Christ came under the bondage of sin and death" in God's Word just substitute its meaning.
Look for verses stating that Christ bore our sin, God laid our iniquity on Him, Christ died for our sins, He who knew no sin became sin for us. If you can find those in your Bible then you have found the doctrine that Jesus came under the bondage of sin and death.
Just remember that this was OUR bonage (OUR sin, OUR wages) and He is sinless.
This is a good example as well. Hopefully this will help you understand exegesis vs eisegesis.
Exegesis is the process of extracting the intended meaning from a text, while eisegesis is the practice of reading one's own ideas into a text.
1. Christ came under the bondage of sin and death (or Christ died for our sins). Compare this to Scripture
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree (1 Peter 2:24)
Christ died for our sins (1 Cor 15:3).
[He] too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil(Heb 2:14-15)
Very truly I tell you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin (John 8:34)
Sin begats death (James 1:15)
Ask yourself -
Do these passages state that Jesus bore our sins? Yes
Did Jesus die for our sins? Yes.
Were we in bindage to sin? Yes
Does Satan hold the power of death? Yes.
The teaching is in God's Word.
This is exegesis (the meaning is from the text itself).
2. Christ suffered the wrath of God against sin on our behalf.
We can find some of this in the text of Scripture
Christ suffered and died on our behalf.
BUT then we run into problems.
No passage states that (you do, I trust, have a good grasp on the English language...."states" vs "states that") what Jesus suffered was divine wrath (God's wrath, God's anger, whatever words hold that meaning).
In fact, Hebrews 2:15 states that the one who holds the power of death is Satan.
So this second statement is called eisegesis (it reads into the text what is not there).
Remember, does not have to be the exact words, but the doctrine has to be in the actual Word of God (what is written".
You may be wondering why this is do important, as often people simply choose whatever doctrines they like or agree with.
The reason is twofold.
First, God commands us not to lean on our understanding but on the the words coming forth from Him. When our doctrine is not what is written in Scripture it is our understanding. It is philosophy.
Second, God also warns us not to be carried away by philosophy.
Just continue studying Scripture and avoid what any sect tells you is really taught (God is more than competent enough to have delivered what He wants to teach us in His own words) and I am sure you will be fine.