Do All Baptists Except IFB's Spiritualize The Bible Prophesies To Israel

[JD731]

The 'Israel of God' is comprised of OT & NT saints, known also as 'children of promise'.

Galatians Chapter 4

28​	Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Romans Chapter 9

6​	But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7​	neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8​	That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

Philippians Chapter 3

3​	for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh:

Hi ky. Your premise is not true. One must learn to follow the context of the scriptures. The people in Galatia were also mentioned in 1 and 2 Peter as being "strangers." What is that? It is people who are not at home.

1 Peter 1:1
Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
These are provinces in Asia Minor.

The reason Paul said in Rom 9 (from which you quoted) that they were not all Israel that are of Israel is a reference to these people who were born physically of Abraham through Jacob and were under the Abrahamic Covenant promises but who had in 722 BC been cut off from those promises by being extracted from the land by the Assyrians because of their sins. He then said of them "not my people" and counted them as "gentiles," but in the same breath said they would be called the "sons of the living God (see Hosea 1), a standing that can only be made possible by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and their new birth. One can see the power of Christ to reconcile all sinners to God and make them new and restore all things.

Can you see the typology between the first born son and the second born son. This is the point of Romans 9. To show that the first birth of the flesh profits nothing but they must experience the second birth through faith in Christ to be children of God. Romans was written in 58 AD and by this time it is abundantly clear that only a very small remnant of the whole of Israel would be saved by the blood of the God Man, Jesus Christ because they held on to their trust in the deeds of the old man, the law of Moses.

Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

All through the scriptures is this truth illustrated in type beginning with Cain and Abel. The elder - the flesh, the firstborn, shall serve the younger, the second born - the Spiritual man. This is illustrated everywhere. The prodigal in Lk 15 was the second son. Jesus Christ was the second son of God, (Lk 3:38). There is Judah and Israel. Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, Japheth and Shem, the old covenant of law and the new covenant of grace to name a few. This principle is most consistent throughout all the scriptures until every entity left on the earth is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ could not save anyone under the OT law which was the operative principle of God's divine dealing with his people Judah when he came as a man into this family. He must be born from above, and he was at his resurrection according to the scriptures. After this he could not only save every member of his family but every member of all families on the earth.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Do not think you can be saved apart from the cross of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit.
Flesh first
Spirit second.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

If there would have been a way to be saved during OT times, as the NT defines salvation from sin, then there would have been no need for Christ to have died and to have risen from the dead. See 2 Cor 3.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus Christ is a man and kingdom is God's.

May the Lord be pleased and honored by my handling of his wonderful word.

 

[JesusFan]

As a Baptist ( I'm one in the Scriptural sense, even though I currently do not belong to a church in the traditional or denominational sense ), I see the Scriptures telling us that there is an "Israel" that is composed of all who are of the bloodline of Jacob ( whom the Lord renamed "Israel" in Genesis 32:28 )...
That is Israel, the nation.

Then there is spiritual "Israel", the Israel of God ( Galatians 6:16 ) as found and further defined in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:14-16 and Philippians 3:3....
Which is every one who is saved.

No, I do not see the Church replacing the physical nation, but I do see those of the elect remnant within the physical nation being combined with Gentile believers in a new covenant after the cross.
All true believers in Jesus Christ are "the Israel of God" and are "the Church".


I see many literal and spiritual promises made to the Israel of God and to the nation of Israel...
Some of those promises have already been fulfilled, some have yet to be fulfilled.

Would you the Church as being "Spiritual Israel?"

 

[JesusFan]

Are jew and gentile in the eternal state the same, or different?

Could you clarify your statement? Why are all the OT. people mentioned in Hebrews 11,,,The faith Chapter, if they were not saved people?

Would the saved jews and Gentiles be part of the same Body, and both in the New Jerusalem then ?

 

[JesusFan]

Hi ky. Your premise is not true. One must learn to follow the context of the scriptures. The people in Galatia were also mentioned in 1 and 2 Peter as being "strangers." What is that? It is people who are not at home.

1 Peter 1:1
Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
These are provinces in Asia Minor.

The reason Paul said in Rom 9 (from which you quoted) that they were not all Israel that are of Israel is a reference to these people who were born physically of Abraham through Jacob and were under the Abrahamic Covenant promises but who had in 722 BC been cut off from those promises by being extracted from the land by the Assyrians because of their sins. He then said of them "not my people" and counted them as "gentiles," but in the same breath said they would be called the "sons of the living God (see Hosea 1), a standing that can only be made possible by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and their new birth. One can see the power of Christ to reconcile all sinners to God and make them new and restore all things.

Can you see the typology between the first born son and the second born son. This is the point of Romans 9. To show that the first birth of the flesh profits nothing but they must experience the second birth through faith in Christ to be children of God. Romans was written in 58 AD and by this time it is abundantly clear that only a very small remnant of the whole of Israel would be saved by the blood of the God Man, Jesus Christ because they held on to their trust in the deeds of the old man, the law of Moses.

Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

All through the scriptures is this truth illustrated in type beginning with Cain and Abel. The elder - the flesh, the firstborn, shall serve the younger, the second born - the Spiritual man. This is illustrated everywhere. The prodigal in Lk 15 was the second son. Jesus Christ was the second son of God, (Lk 3:38). There is Judah and Israel. Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, Japheth and Shem, the old covenant of law and the new covenant of grace to name a few. This principle is most consistent throughout all the scriptures until every entity left on the earth is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ could not save anyone under the OT law which was the operative principle of God's divine dealing with his people Judah when he came as a man into this family. He must be born from above, and he was at his resurrection according to the scriptures. After this he could not only save every member of his family but every member of all families on the earth.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Do not think you can be saved apart from the cross of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit.
Flesh first
Spirit second.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

If there would have been a way to be saved during OT times, as the NT defines salvation from sin, then there would have been no need for Christ to have died and to have risen from the dead. See 2 Cor 3.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus Christ is a man and kingdom is God's.

May the Lord be pleased and honored by my handling of his wonderful word.

The Faithful remant of Jews within Israel were saved by the Cross of Christ, same way we were today

 

[JD731]

Are jew and gentile in the eternal state the same, or different?

Not Jew and gentile but Israel and the nations and the church, the trinitarian signature. The church is the heavenly part of this kingdom and dwells in a satellite city called New Jerusalem that is described in Re 22. Israel and the nations dwell on the new earth.

It is one kingdom, the Kingdom of God, with three parts and we are all in it who are born again. I can give you several logical proofs if asked but I will show you one here.

Galatians was the first epistle of Paul's 13 epistles to the gentiles. It was written in AD 49. In this epistle he said this:

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (This in the context of the church, not the entire kingdom).

Some 9 years later Paul wrote Romans in 58 AD and claimed that he was a Jew.

Ro 10:
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people (that is those tribes who were cut off and called by God - no people see Hosea 1), and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time (AD 58 and this age) also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

One can apply logic and faith and know that the Israel of God mentioned in Ga 4 is referring to the remnant of Israel, the believers of Israel who are in the church. The trinitarian signature of the church, the body of Christ equals the saved Jews, the saved gentiles, filled with the Holy Spirit. Three in one and one in three.

 

[percho]

Hi ky. Your premise is not true. One must learn to follow the context of the scriptures. The people in Galatia were also mentioned in 1 and 2 Peter as being "strangers." What is that? It is people who are not at home.

1 Peter 1:1
Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
These are provinces in Asia Minor.

The reason Paul said in Rom 9 (from which you quoted) that they were not all Israel that are of Israel is a reference to these people who were born physically of Abraham through Jacob and were under the Abrahamic Covenant promises but who had in 722 BC been cut off from those promises by being extracted from the land by the Assyrians because of their sins. He then said of them "not my people" and counted them as "gentiles," but in the same breath said they would be called the "sons of the living God (see Hosea 1), a standing that can only be made possible by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and their new birth. One can see the power of Christ to reconcile all sinners to God and make them new and restore all things.

Can you see the typology between the first born son and the second born son. This is the point of Romans 9. To show that the first birth of the flesh profits nothing but they must experience the second birth through faith in Christ to be children of God. Romans was written in 58 AD and by this time it is abundantly clear that only a very small remnant of the whole of Israel would be saved by the blood of the God Man, Jesus Christ because they held on to their trust in the deeds of the old man, the law of Moses.

Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

All through the scriptures is this truth illustrated in type beginning with Cain and Abel. The elder - the flesh, the firstborn, shall serve the younger, the second born - the Spiritual man. This is illustrated everywhere. The prodigal in Lk 15 was the second son. Jesus Christ was the second son of God, (Lk 3:38). There is Judah and Israel. Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, Japheth and Shem, the old covenant of law and the new covenant of grace to name a few. This principle is most consistent throughout all the scriptures until every entity left on the earth is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ could not save anyone under the OT law which was the operative principle of God's divine dealing with his people Judah when he came as a man into this family. He must be born from above, and he was at his resurrection according to the scriptures. After this he could not only save every member of his family but every member of all families on the earth.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Do not think you can be saved apart from the cross of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit.
Flesh first
Spirit second.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

If there would have been a way to be saved during OT times, as the NT defines salvation from sin, then there would have been no need for Christ to have died and to have risen from the dead. See 2 Cor 3.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus Christ is a man and kingdom is God's.

May the Lord be pleased and honored by my handling of his wonderful word.

Amen Brother

The children of the promised seed, not of many but as of one, which is Christ. VIA the promise of the Spirit given through the calling of God.

God called Paul who was of unbelief unto belief IMHO

 

[Zaatar71]

Would the saved jews and Gentiles be part of the same Body, and both in the New Jerusalem then ?

Yes, of course. That is exactly what the bible teaches. Misguided dispensational ideas have led many astray.

 

[JD731]

Are jew and gentile in the eternal state the same, or different?

Could you clarify your statement? Why are all the OT. people mentioned in Hebrews 11,,,The faith Chapter, if they were not saved people?

Yes. The definition of being "saved" is the renewal of the image of God, which is trinitarian. This could never be accomplished in the sons of Adam because all his offspring, including you and me, were born in his image, which is soul and body, bi-partite. and have no ability in that condition to fellowship with a thrice holy God. Our sin (and all of us sin because we have no power against it in our Adamic standing - See Ro 5)
Sin is a death penalty, spiritual death, which simply means that the person who commits one sin violates the holiness of God and unless God himself did something to put it away then no person could ever be reconciled to God and be renewed. Sin requires death. Death is separation. eternal death is eternal separation in the lake of fire called the second death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Jesus Christ in the flesh, the son of God, having the Spirit of God indwelling him from his birth, lived perfectly without sin by the power of the Spirit that was in him, deliberately received the penalty of Sin, death, both physical and spiritual, thus reconciling all who were under sins power. Praise our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ for that!

Now, all who come to God in his name, trusting in what God says, that whosoever comes to him in Jesus name will be forgiven and will receive his Holy Spirit to indwell his body, making him in the image of Jesus Christ, a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit of God. The door is open for all men at this time in history but it will not always be open. The time of grace will close at a future point so we should all be sure we are in the faith, 2 Cor 13:5.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

OT believers in what God said to them were justified by their faith but they were not saved according to our definition until Jesus died on the cross, was buried for 3 days and rose from the dead. There was a resurrection of OT saints at that time called the "firstfruits" at which time they received a glorious body in which the Spirit of God dwelt

One either believes this testimony of the Hebrews letter of the first century or he doesn't. I personally believe it.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (age = age of Law) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If God is not counting anyone guilty it means he was satisfied by the sacrifice. Do not go around preaching that he died for a so called "elect" when he died for "sin" and ones who believes him becomes the elect. If he put away sin it means anyone is a candidate for salvation by simply believing God. You and me!

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes. The definition of being "saved" is the renewal of the image of God, which is trinitarian. This could never be accomplished in the sons of Adam because all his offspring, including you and me, were born in his image, which is soul and body, bi-partite. and have no ability in that condition to fellowship with a thrice holy God. Our sin (and all of us sin because we have no power against it in our Adamic standing - See Ro 5)
Sin is a death penalty, spiritual death, which simply means that the person who commits one sin violates the holiness of God and unless God himself did something to put it away then no person could ever be reconciled to God and be renewed. Sin requires death. Death is separation. eternal death is eternal separation in the lake of fire called the second death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Jesus Christ in the flesh, the son of God, having the Spirit of God indwelling him from his birth, lived perfectly without sin by the power of the Spirit that was in him, deliberately received the penalty of Sin, death, both physical and spiritual, thus reconciling all who were under sins power. Praise our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ for that!

Now, all who come to God in his name, trusting in what God says, that whosoever comes to him in Jesus name will be forgiven and will receive his Holy Spirit to indwell his body, making him in the image of Jesus Christ, a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit of God. The door is open for all men at this time in history but it will not always be open. The time of grace will close at a future point so we should all be sure we are in the faith, 2 Cor 13:5.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

OT believers in what God said to them were justified by their faith but they were not saved according to our definition until Jesus died on the cross, was buried for 3 days and rose from the dead. There was a resurrection of OT saints at that time called the "firstfruits" at which time they received a glorious body in which the Spirit of God dwelt

One either believes this testimony of the Hebrews letter of the first century or he doesn't. I personally believe it.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (age = age of Law) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If God is not counting anyone guilty it means he was satisfied by the sacrifice. Do not go around preaching that he died for a so called "elect" when he died for "sin" and ones who believes him becomes the elect. If he put away sin it means anyone is a candidate for salvation by simply believing God. You and me!

There is no 'so called elect"in scripture. There is in sripture the elect of God.
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2tim2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[JD731]

There is no 'so called elect"in scripture. There is in sripture the elect of God.
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2tim2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Well, election is a different subject and I will start a thread on it later. I will say here that if you are saved, as I have defined salvation in my comments above, you are not saved because you are elect, as election is defined by the Reformed, but you are elect of the Father because you are redeemed by the Son and have been baptized (not with water) by the Spirit into the body of Christ, the church.

You must think three dimensionally. God has chosen Christ and if you are in him you have been predestined to be glorified and to be with him. Watch for a thread on this soon where we can discuss this.

 

[kyredneck]

Hi ky. Your premise is not true. One must learn to follow the context of the scriptures. The people in Galatia were also mentioned in 1 and 2 Peter as being "strangers." What is that? It is people who are not at home.

1 Peter 1:1
Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
These are provinces in Asia Minor.

The reason Paul said in Rom 9 (from which you quoted) that they were not all Israel that are of Israel is a reference to these people who were born physically of Abraham through Jacob and were under the Abrahamic Covenant promises but who had in 722 BC been cut off from those promises by being extracted from the land by the Assyrians because of their sins. He then said of them "not my people" and counted them as "gentiles," but in the same breath said they would be called the "sons of the living God (see Hosea 1), a standing that can only be made possible by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and their new birth. One can see the power of Christ to reconcile all sinners to God and make them new and restore all things.

Can you see the typology between the first born son and the second born son. This is the point of Romans 9. To show that the first birth of the flesh profits nothing but they must experience the second birth through faith in Christ to be children of God. Romans was written in 58 AD and by this time it is abundantly clear that only a very small remnant of the whole of Israel would be saved by the blood of the God Man, Jesus Christ because they held on to their trust in the deeds of the old man, the law of Moses.

Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

All through the scriptures is this truth illustrated in type beginning with Cain and Abel. The elder - the flesh, the firstborn, shall serve the younger, the second born - the Spiritual man. This is illustrated everywhere. The prodigal in Lk 15 was the second son. Jesus Christ was the second son of God, (Lk 3:38). There is Judah and Israel. Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, Japheth and Shem, the old covenant of law and the new covenant of grace to name a few. This principle is most consistent throughout all the scriptures until every entity left on the earth is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ could not save anyone under the OT law which was the operative principle of God's divine dealing with his people Judah when he came as a man into this family. He must be born from above, and he was at his resurrection according to the scriptures. After this he could not only save every member of his family but every member of all families on the earth.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Do not think you can be saved apart from the cross of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit.
Flesh first
Spirit second.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

If there would have been a way to be saved during OT times, as the NT defines salvation from sin, then there would have been no need for Christ to have died and to have risen from the dead. See 2 Cor 3.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus Christ is a man and kingdom is God's.

May the Lord be pleased and honored by my handling of his wonderful word.

...spoken like a true blue Jew-worshipping dispy...

...dem Jews, dey be special...

 

[kyredneck]

Can you see the typology between the first born son and the second born son.

YES. (scroll)

 

[kyredneck]

The prodigal in Lk 15

Who Was The Elder Son? (scroll)

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Background Check:
You speak of "the church of Jesus Christ", as apparently suggesting that all saved souls in the New Testament could or should be considered as being in some way a part of something called "the church of Jesus Christ".

the church of Jesus Christ

Yet, this is from a Fundamental Baptist church which states their belief in "the church", by definition, as being "local", which would mean that there are only "organized self-governing assembling bodies of believers", which make up what they know to be called a "church", in various different localities, while the remainder of all the saved on earth are in The Kingdom of God (and all the saints passed on into heaven would be in The Family of God, included with all saved church members and those in the Kingdom of God, of course).​

Our Beliefs - Independent Fundamental Baptist | Bethel Baptist Church

Bethel Baptist Church Beliefs | Independent Fundament Baptist | King James Bible | Salvation by Grace through Faith | Eternal Security

www.bethelbaptistravenna.com

​

"Local Church"​

"We believe Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist Church, and that Jesus started this church during His early ministry (Matthew 16:18). This church was empowered on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4) whose mission is to “go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

"We believe that all of the church’s endeavors should be supported by God’s financial plan of tithes and offerings. We further believe that the church is independent from all boards and other governing bodies under the complete guidance of the Scriptures, being led by the Pastor as he is led by the Word of God."

(Matthew 28:18-20; Hebrews 13:7,17)

&
This from https://independentbaptist.church/doctrinal-statement

"The Church"​

"We believe that the New Testament church is a local assembly of baptized believers who have voluntarily joined themselves together to carry out the Great Commission. The Lord is doing His work in ths world through local churches. The establishment and continuance of local churches is clearly taught and defined in the New Testament Scriptures (Acts 14:27; 20:17, 28-32; I Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-11).

"We believe in the autonomy of the local church free of any external authority or control. Christ is the o nly head of the church (Acts 13:1-4, 15:19-31, 20:28; Romans 16:1, 4; I Corinthians 3:9,16; 5:4-7,13; I Peter 5:1-4).

"We recognize the ordinances of baptism by immersion in water and the Lord's Supper as a Scriptural means of testimony for local churches in this age (Matthew. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42, 18:18; I Corinthians 11:23-26)."

am IFB

I just point that out because you say you are IFB and, generally speaking, they are all going to be "local church only", since that's what the words in the Bible for "church" and "body" are always referring to without exception, when they are speaking of the Divinely Originated and Organized churches that Jesus Built.

Israel is the people of God with an earth bound destiny while

Then, with regard to the O.P. and your use of the word "Spiritualize", we see here where you say you believe that "Israel...with an earth bound destiny", when the only earth bound destiny I find that most people think they see for Israel is in Revelation 20:4, where no reference is made there to the earth at all.

Is that what you call "Spiritualizing", when you add in the entire destiny of a nation of people, by simply "Spiritually adding" like you do the "earth" into that verses, when it's not there to start with?

Beyond that, "the Israel of God" are all the elect Jews and Gentiles, which is why they are called "the Spiritual seed" (if it's O.K. with you for God the Spiritualize them that way.)

 

[JD731]

...spoken like a true blue Jew-worshipping dispy...

...dem Jews, dey be special...

Thanks ky for taking time to respond. I have some thoughts on this subject I would like for you to consider because they are important.

Emotionalism is not driving my thinking, my intellect is. My being a Christian does not separate me from logic and reason. There is no excuse for a sane person with a high IQ and a complete Bible who says he is saved to fail to see the special and eternal relationship between the nation and people of God, Israel, and God who raised them up.

Trust me when I say that without a nation of Israel and a faithful God who keeps covenants there would be no salvation for you or me.


Jesus said these words from his own mouth;

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

My logic and reasoning teaches me that the opposite is true if these words are true, that is without the Jews there would be no salvation.

YES. (scroll)

Excellent!

Who Was The Elder Son? (scroll)

Lk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

God has reckoned Israel dead nationally. Dead means separated from him (out of her land - the far country) and he buried her in the graveyard of the nations in 70 AD, which is a probationary period of 40 years after the resurrection of Christ (see note 1 below) where they are incorporated into gentile nations and considered by God as gentiles. Gentiles are not called upon to be saved nationally as were the Jews but are saved individually by the gospel of Christ, one at a time, and then baptized into the church. Hence, the church is a gentile church in character. Correct me if I am wrong but I think there are 8 prominent gentile women married to Jewish men in the record of the OT. This is a type of the church and Christ. Rebekah, the wife of Isaac, being the first.

Note 1

Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Note 2
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world (2889)



Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them (Israel) the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness (one should answer this question)?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Reason and logic to be applied here.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

There has been nearly two thousand years of history that proves there was no Israel (nationally) but there is one today. Has there been a national resurrection?


#1
Eze 37:1 The hand of theLORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the LORD God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.


#2
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the LORD God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

#3
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

That is the way I believe this shakes out. There are things I might change in my thinking as I get more light. May the LORD be honoured with this post.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. The definition of being "saved" is the renewal of the image of God, which is trinitarian. This could never be accomplished in the sons of Adam because all his offspring, including you and me, were born in his image, which is soul and body, bi-partite. and have no ability in that condition to fellowship with a thrice holy God. Our sin (and all of us sin because we have no power against it in our Adamic standing - See Ro 5)
Sin is a death penalty, spiritual death, which simply means that the person who commits one sin violates the holiness of God and unless God himself did something to put it away then no person could ever be reconciled to God and be renewed. Sin requires death. Death is separation. eternal death is eternal separation in the lake of fire called the second death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Jesus Christ in the flesh, the son of God, having the Spirit of God indwelling him from his birth, lived perfectly without sin by the power of the Spirit that was in him, deliberately received the penalty of Sin, death, both physical and spiritual, thus reconciling all who were under sins power. Praise our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ for that!

Now, all who come to God in his name, trusting in what God says, that whosoever comes to him in Jesus name will be forgiven and will receive his Holy Spirit to indwell his body, making him in the image of Jesus Christ, a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit of God. The door is open for all men at this time in history but it will not always be open. The time of grace will close at a future point so we should all be sure we are in the faith, 2 Cor 13:5.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

OT believers in what God said to them were justified by their faith but they were not saved according to our definition until Jesus died on the cross, was buried for 3 days and rose from the dead. There was a resurrection of OT saints at that time called the "firstfruits" at which time they received a glorious body in which the Spirit of God dwelt

One either believes this testimony of the Hebrews letter of the first century or he doesn't. I personally believe it.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (age = age of Law) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If God is not counting anyone guilty it means he was satisfied by the sacrifice. Do not go around preaching that he died for a so called "elect" when he died for "sin" and ones who believes him becomes the elect. If he put away sin it means anyone is a candidate for salvation by simply believing God. You and me!

was Jesus fully God then?.

 

[JD731]

Then, with regard to the O.P. and your use of the word "Spiritualize", we see here where you say you believe that "Israel...with an earth bound destiny", when the only earth bound destiny I find that most people think they see for Israel is in Revelation 20:4, where no reference is made there to the earth at all.

Is that what you call "Spiritualizing", when you add in the entire destiny of a nation of people, by simply "Spiritually adding" like you do the "earth" into that verses, when it's not there to start with?

Beyond that, "the Israel of God" are all the elect Jews and Gentiles, which is why they are called "the Spiritual seed" (if it's O.K. with you for God the Spiritualize them that way.)

Thanks Alan for answering my op. I would like to respond without purposely trying to offend you but I totally do not understand Baptist Bride ideas.

What I am referring to as "spiritualizing" is refusing to believe the prophets of the OT and the New regarding Israel.

Israel is Jacob. Are you claiming to be spiritual Jacob?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[JD731]

was Jesus fully God then?.

Jesus was not born of Adam, he was born of God. He is the promised "seed of the woman" from whom he received his humanity. Because of this, he is the only "begotten" son of God. All other men are born of Adam and are not born of God until they are born again of the Spirit of God, which is a spiritual birth.

This is a fundamental of the faith.

What do you believe?

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus was not born of Adam, he was born of God. He is the promised "seed of the woman" from whom he received his humanity. Because of this, he is the only "begotten" son of God. All other men are born of Adam and are not born of God until they are born again of the Spirit of God, which is a spiritual birth.

This is a fundamental of the faith.

What do you believe?

I believe that Jesus preexisted from all eternity as the Word of the Father, as being a member and person of the Holy Trinity , do you?

 

[JD731]

I believe that Jesus preexisted from all eternity as the Word of the Father, as being a member and person of the Holy Trinity , do you?

I am beginning to think you are playing the "let's be dense" card. I have been continually drawing attention to the trinitarian signature of God in his creation. What do I mean by that? If I have not mentioned that many here are one dimensional in their thinking, then it was an oversight. I even ended one of my posts with the proclamation that Jesus Christ is God. Having said that, that fact makes him no less man, and he sits now on the right hand of the Father in his glorified body.