Do All Baptists Except IFB's Spiritualize The Bible Prophesies To Israel

[Zaatar71]

@Zaatar71, we are opposites in Scripture. We will disagree on almost all of Biblical doctrine found in Scripture.

I think the reason is the difference in our foundational beliefs.

The foundation of Christianity is Jesus Christ crucified to set man free from his sin.

That foundation is salvation, which we see differently.

Your foundation is God choosing that salvation for man, mine is God offering salvation with man choosing to accept or reject.

We go our separate ways with interpretation based on that principle we believe.

I agree we will differ, You have salvation being up to man, I have salvation being a Covenant salvation accomplished by the Son.
Men are born rejecting God and His word. God draws men to salvation...jn6:44;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Charlie24]

In verse 7 this Good Shepherd will be struck (in 11:17 it was the worthless shepherd who was destroyed), and the striking will leave him pierced (12:10). Here, the one who “wields the sword” is God himself; “awake” is the feminine imperative referring to the sword, and “strike” is the masculine imperative agreeing with God. So in Zechariah, Messiah is put to death by the people according to 12:10-14, and by God according to 13:7 (see Isaiah 53:10 and Acts 2:23).

When the Shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered. The full meaning of this would be the scattering of Israel because of their rejection of Messiah, that scattering being part of the curse pronounced for disobedience to the covenant (see Deut. 28:64; 29:24-25). God gives up the nation to the misery and confusion of a flock without a shepherd. So the flock that is scattered in consequence of the death of the Messiah is the covenant nation, ethnic Israel. Allen Ross

Actually 11:15-17 is a contrast of Christ and the anti-christ.

The anti-christ is the "idol shepherd" with "the sword upon his arm."

The context of the book of Zechariah is filled with the actions of the anti-christ.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree we will differ, You have salvation being up to man, I have salvation being a Covenant salvation accomplished by the Son.
Men are born rejecting God and His word. God draws men to salvation...jn6:44;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Man is drawn to God by the hearing of the Gospel, it does not mean he will believe.

God leaves that a choice to man. As He did with Adam in the very beginning, He also tells us the consequences of not heeding His words.

 

[Zaatar71]

Actually 11:15-17 is a contrast of Christ and the anti-christ.

The anti-christ is the "idol shepherd" with "the sword upon his arm."

The context of the book of Zechariah is filled with the actions of the anti-christ.

Mt26:31 is not talking about any anti christ,lol

 

[Zaatar71]

Man is drawn to God by the hearing of the Gospel, it does not mean he will believe.

God leaves that a choice to man. As He did with Adam in the very beginning, He also tells us the consequences of not heeding His words.

Sorry Charlie. The bible does not teach what you suggest. jn.6:37-44 is abundantly clear. Those given by the Father to the Son,will indeed come to the Son.. Man CANNOT COME on his own, as you suggest. The text is clear. No man can come as you suggest.

 

[Charlie24]

Mt26:31 is not talking about any anti christ,lol

I'm referring to Zech. 11:15-17 that you referenced.

Wasn't that what you were referring to as 11:17?

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry Charlie. The bible does not teach what you suggest. jn.6:37-44 is abundantly clear. Those given by the Father to the Son,will indeed come to the Son.. Man CANNOT COME on his own, as you suggest. The text is clear. No man can come as you suggest.

The principle I referenced in action.

 

[Charlie24]

Mt26:31 is not talking about any anti christ,lol

Does your Bible have a reference from Mat 26:31 to Zechariah 13:7?

I just noticed that mine does. I knew the connection but never noticed the reference.

 

[Charlie24]

Does your Bible have a reference from Mat 26:31 to Zechariah 13:7?

I just noticed that mine does. I knew the connection but never noticed the reference.

Whether it does or not begin reading in Zech. 13:7.

Zechariah takes us from the smiting of the Shepard and the scattering that night to the Battle of Armageddon where Israel is scattered by the anti-christ.

It's Scripture explaining Scripture by way of prophecy. It's all connected to the smiting of Christ with Israel scattered and Satan/the anti-christs' involvement.

 

[Zaatar71]

Does your Bible have a reference from Mat 26:31 to Zechariah 13:7?

I just noticed that mine does. I knew the connection but never noticed the reference.

Yes..it is at the cross!

 

[Zaatar71]

Whether it does or not begin reading in Zech. 13:7.

Zechariah takes us from the smiting of the Shepard and the scattering that night to the Battle of Armageddon where Israel is scattered by the anti-christ.

It's Scripture explaining Scripture by way of prophecy. It's all connected to the smiting of Christ with Israel scattered and Satan/the anti-christs' involvement.

I used to be taught such things, but saw the living water as the gospel now...
Zech.14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Ezk.47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

Jn7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Nt.Church is Ezkiels temple, The living water of the gospel going forth, by the Spirit through the church. It starts at, the ankles, then the knees, then the loins, then the shoulders, ie, it grows

 

[Charlie24]

I used to be taught such things, but saw the living water as the gospel now...
Zech.14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Ezk.47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

Jn7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Nt.Church is Ezkiels temple, The living water of the gospel going forth, by the Spirit through the church. It starts at, the ankles, then the knees, then the loins, then the shoulders, ie, it grows

I definitely see Zech. 14:8 as literal.

The former sea is the Dead Sea, the hinder sea is the Mediterranean Sea.

The living waters impart life-giving properties to man, and in the summer and winter is the continuation of the seasons.

 

[Charlie24]

I definitely see Zech. 14:8 as literal.

The former sea is the Dead Sea, the hinder sea is the Mediterranean Sea.

The living waters impart life-giving properties to man, and in the summer and winter is the continuation of the seasons.

This is during the Kingdom Age when Christ shall rule the earth. Isaiah spoke of this time when years are extended to man.

A man who dies at 100 years old will be considered young, yet a child.

This is due to the life-giving waters flowing out of Jerusalem at this time that Zechariah spoke of.

It's possible that man could live hundreds of years during this time as we read in Genesis in the beginning.

 

[Ben1445]

Many believe the Millenium has started, so are these things happening now?

I don’t.
And no. Is Christ reigning in Jerusalem? Then no, He is not ruling for 1,000 years in Jerusalem yet.

That should be enough to think about for a second. When people figure this out, it helps with the following questions.

Where did Zechariah say nations will come to Israel? Where did he say during the millennium?
Where are all "nations" forced to come to Christ, by Jews? Where is Israel said to be the greatest nation on earth?
Where do you get this idea, that the Church is God;s second Choice? Where are these ideas coming from?

 

[Charlie24]

The Amillennialists will use John 18:36 to say Christs' Kingdom is not of this world.

But they ignore what He actually said in the last line.

John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Christ came the first time to give Himself a ransom that man may be saved from his sin.

The second time He comes will be when His earthly Kingdom comes under His rule.

 

[JD731]

There is no excuse for a sane person with a high IQ and a complete Bible to keep making 'a distinction' between Jew and non-Jew that the scripture tells you multiple times is not there:

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12



...only Dispies make a distinction....but you seem to go beyond that, placing Jews on a pedestal, bordering on idolatry.

ky, please allow me to respond to your post by taking your first proof text for your religious distinction. You posted the above verse. My KJV does not have that word "distinction" in it anywhere and I think it is a misrepresentation of the text for your bible to do such. Take a look at this word logic.

Acts 11:12 And the Spirit bade me (a Jewish apostle) go with them (three gentile men), nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

The year is 40 AD. This is 10 years after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The condition of the gentiles before God is that not a single gentile in the whole world has ever been saved on this day. I am using the definition of "saved" that I posted in an earlier post that I hope you have read already.

This is the specific time that God has "opened the door of faith" to the gentiles because of the willful rejection by the Jewish nation of their Messiah Saviour. This is not what JDS says, it is what the Bible that I have in my possession says. It is said at Jerusalem at the apostolic counsel to determine what authority the Moses covenant has over the gentiles since that was the contention between the circumcision and the apostles Paul and Barnabas. This is circa 45 AD. Take a look
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The return to Antioch, Syria (the sending church) after this first missionary campaign.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.
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The contention from false Jewish believers
Acts 15:And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
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The conclusion by Peter
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles (not just Cornelius and his house, but all gentiles everywhere) by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (not by regeneration)
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we (Jews) shall be saved, even as they (gentiles).

Why does this matter?

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter used these keys to open the door of faith, first to the Jews in Acts 2 and later to the gentiles in Acts 10.

Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Why did Paul say "we" in the context of speaking of gentiles?

I think it is because that from the point of including gentiles as candidates for salvation, the Jews were no long required to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ as a condition of receiving the Spirit as Peter had said in Acts 2:38.

There is a before and after in salvation.

Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith in the finished work of Jesus is the means of receiving the Spirit, who is life, and he, Jesus Christ, must be made known to every one before they can be saved through him and the door of faith must be open. No amount of law keeping can save anyone. The door will not always be open.

ky, the very fact that God is opening the door of faith to two different groups is making a distinction and if I were you I would get upset by a translator who thought I was too disengaged with reality to notice what they did.

It does make sense that God encourages Peter to not doubt that it is his will, considering the relationship of Jews and gentiles in the past 2 thousand years before this time. We need to be more critical of these bad Bible translations and who is teaching us. Don't you agree?