Do all christians grow spiritually in life?

[Internet Theologian]

Consider the 3,000 that got saved on the Day of Pentecost. They were all saved. I would venture to say that very few went on to be disciples.

Scripture is not subservient to what you 'venture to say'. All true believers are disciples, not all disciples are true believers. You've adopted a false dichotomy by those you follow theologically a teaching which is not founded in Scripture. Nothing in the passage supports what you venture to say, you're adding to the Scriptures.

At the end of the chapter it goes on to say that "the Lord added daily such as should be saved. He was adding believers not disciples. That is made clear. Afterward the believers continued in the apostles doctrine, etc., that they might become disciples.

There are no mere believers added to the kingdom, all are disciples. Nothing in the text verifies what you are adding and saying it says, all of it is coming from you, from what you've been trained to believe by men, thus your statement 'That is made clear' is unfounded.

All of them continued because they were disciples, which was the Lord fulfilling the commission given to the apostles, they didn't become disciples, this was evidence they are and were disciples to begin with. Do you even know what a disciple is? I'm sure you can google it real fast, yes?

 

[DHK]

Scripture is not subservient to what you 'venture to say'. All true believers are disciples, not all disciples are true believers. You've adopted a false dichotomy by those you follow theologically a teaching which is not founded in Scripture. Nothing in the passage supports what you venture to say, you're adding to the Scriptures.

Scripture interprets itself. It seems as if you haven't read all my posts. I will point you to one which answers this very adequately from the Bible.
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...spiritually-in-life.96860/page-4#post-2185989

There is no false dichotomy. There are believers who are disciples and there are believers who are not disciples. Either you are a disciple or you are not. Which are you?

There are no mere believers added to the kingdom, all are disciples. Nothing in the text verifies what you are adding and saying it says, all of it is coming from you, from what you've been trained to believe by men, thus your statement 'That is made clear' is unfounded.

You are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. You said nothing here that is backed up with the scriptures.

All of them continued because they were disciples, which was the Lord fulfilling the commission given to the apostles, they didn't become disciples, this was evidence they are and were disciples to begin with. Do you even know what a disciple is? I'm sure you can google it real fast, yes?

Conjecture is not proof. Ad hominem is not debate. It demonstrates the lack of knowledge in debate.

 

[Internet Theologian]

There is no false dichotomy. There are believers who are disciples and there are believers who are not disciples. Either you are a disciple or you are not. Which are you?

There is of a certainty a false dichotomy. You've adopted this teaching that stemmed from the errors of Chafer, Hodge, Ryrie, Walvoord etc.

You've probably heard and have taught 'nothing new is true' or something similar. Their teachings and yours as well are fairly new.

Show us all where this false dichotomy was taught in the early church. Find us a theologian that actually taught this, give us a reference.

Going to a verse and falsely concluding it is there won't help your cause, because there is nothing of this taught by the early church, not simply another one of your 'venture to say' moments. As much as you'd like to think, your teaching is not maverick, you've been highly influenced in fundy churches by these teachings and have adopted them as your own.

You are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. You said nothing here that is backed up with the scriptures.

Conjecture is not proof. Ad hominem is not debate. It demonstrates the lack of knowledge in debate.

Of course conjecture is not proof, so why do you employ conjecture with your 'I venture to say' absurdity? I get it, you're entitled to use your opinion to put things in Scripture that aren't there, yet others are not as privileged (thankfully).

I agree ad hominen is not debate. It is a fact that you practice this on a daily basis and this fact is witnessed by many and One.

 

[DHK]

There is of a certainty a false dichotomy. You've adopted this teaching that stemmed from the errors of Chafer, Hodge, Ryrie, Walvoord etc.

Is this your fall back, the way you operate? You don't believe what I teach from the Bible so charge my beliefs to someone that you don't like. Ludicrous! I get my teachings from God's Word. How can I get them from these men, not having read them. I refer to the odd commentary like Walvoord's but usually to check what I already believe. I don't get my beliefs from them.

You've probably heard and have taught 'nothing new is true' or something similar. Their teachings and yours as well are fairly new.

My beliefs are found in the Word of God. It is the "old book," so they aren't new at all, are they?

Show us all where this false dichotomy was taught in the early church. Find us a theologian that actually taught this, give us a reference.

Pay attention. I have shown post after post. I have shown you there is no false dichotomy the "dichotomy" is your word. There is a difference between a believer and a disciple. Very few believers are willing to be disciples. Are you? Are you willing to forsake all and follow Christ? Christ was quite literal when he said that. Levi left his tax-revenue business and all of its profits right in the middle of the street, and followed Christ. He rose up and followed Christ; no questions asked. But Americans (like the rich young ruler) enjoy the comforts of home too much to do what Levi did. It is too much of a sacrifice--the cost is too much to become a disciple. You may be a believer, but I doubt if you are a disciple.

Going to a verse and falsely concluding it is there won't help your cause, because there is nothing of this taught by the early church, not simply another one of your 'venture to say' moments. As much as you'd like to think, your teaching is not maverick, you've been highly influenced in fundy churches by these teachings and have adopted them as your own.

I go to the Scriptures. Where do you go?? The same sources that the RCC go? I haven't gone to "a verse." I have gone to many throughout the NT. You haven't defended yourself well at all. Your position is simply opinion and that is all. You haven't presented anything biblical.

Of course conjecture is not proof, so why do you employ conjecture with your 'I venture to say' absurdity? I get it, you're entitled to use your opinion to put things in Scripture that aren't there, yet others are not as privileged (thankfully).

I agree ad hominen is not debate. It is a fact that you practice this on a daily basis and this fact is witnessed by many and One.

I have provided enough scripture and you haven't refuted any of it.
Scripture vs your opinion. Scripture wins every time.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well DHK, I think you win the award for the most seamless self-contradiction on this board.
You wrote

Consider the 3,000 that got saved on the Day of Pentecost. They were all saved. I would venture to say that very few went on to be disciples.

Then you reversed engines beautifully.I replied:

'Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all as any had need......etc. (Acts 2:44-45; cf. Acts 4:32ff). These people didn't have to go on a 'discipleship training course. They believed and proved their faith by their works. All of them. Straight away.

And you responded:

Yes they did. They probably did because as soon as a person was saved in that era they were ostracized by their families, persecuted by them, as well as being persecuted by the Roman government.

Wonderful!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

--These [Luke 9:18-25] also are verses on discipleship. If one will "come after me," "follow me," etc. or, "be my disciple." This is the way you are defining the word is it not?

Yes, that is how I define the word 'disciple.' Do you tell believers that following Jesus and being His disciple is some sort of optional extra, or reserved for superior grade Christians like yourself?

 

[DHK]

Yes, that is how I define the word 'disciple.' Do you tell believers that following Jesus and being His disciple is some sort of optional extra, or reserved for superior grade Christians like yourself?

I tire of those who "have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior," and I believe are genuinely save. They continue on in their profession. Their lives never change to the extent where they could be called a disciple. Sure they go to church once or twice a week. God has done a work in their life in that inwardly and outwardly they show more of the fruit of the Spirit. But that is about all. They will continue in their secular work till the day they die or retire--then they will just relax and not do much of anything except to be arm chair theologians in places like this.

Are they disciples? Of course not? Have they ever suffered for Christ? No. They live a cushy life in an affluent nation, and don't even know what it means to walk by faith, for everything has always been handed to them.

Forsake all and follow me. They have never forsaken anything. They think their following Jesus because they go to church. What a sacrifice that is!! I am sorry, but this is not the definition of "disciple" that Christ gave.

Go back to what the first century Christians faced.
Go and see what Muslims face today.

Not all the 3,000 were in that church in Jerusalem. They were from many different nations, and we don't know if they sacrificed to that degree or not. It doesn't say. We can't assume what is not written.

l already gave an example of 3 believers in Luke 9 who were believers but did not measure up to the qualification of a disciple according to Jesus.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I tire of those who "have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior," and I believe are genuinely save [sic].

Some Christians grow in the faith more quickly than others. Anyone who has held a leadership position in a church knows that. Some Christians, when they are saved, change their lives utterly in a moment; others take longer. Some take to reading their Bible like a duck to water; others, who are not used to reading anything much, struggle with the word.

But where there is no growth; where there is no repentance, no change of behaviour, I say that there is no spiritual life. Such a person is most unlikely to be a Christian, whatever 'sinner's prayer' he may have prayed, and therefore he should not be baptized and not brought into church membership.

But the idea of an elite grade of 'disciples' is quite unbiblical, and actually Pharisaic. Of course those who promote such theories always place themselves in the elite group. "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats at the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces and to be called, 'Rabbi, Rabbi. But you, do not be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren" (Matt. 23:6-8).

l already gave an example of 3 believers in Luke 9 who were believers but did not measure up to the qualification of a disciple according to Jesus.

These men were not believers. The first man offered to follow our Lord without any idea of what that would mean. The other two gave excuses for not following Him. Nowhere does the Lord Jesus suggest that these men are saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK

Is this your fall back, the way you operate? You don't believe what I teach from the Bible so charge my beliefs to someone that you don't like. Ludicrous! I get my teachings from God's Word.

If this was true you would not hold so much error. Your lack of accountability leaves you in a dangerous position.

How can I get them from these men, not having read them.

You are influenced by others...stop posing.

I refer to the odd commentary like Walvoord's but usually to check what I already believe. I don't get my beliefs from them.

Of course you do....These men could have learned from you....WE GET ITCautious

My beliefs are found in the Word of God.

As if no one else uses the bible to study and learn from??? i see...only you do...thousands of believers and teachers in church history....but only you find beliefs in the scripture.....SWELL. Very Humble statement.
So you will not listen or learn from anyone at any time......

Pay attention. I have shown post after post.

Why should he? You do not pay attention to anyone else, why should he? Maybe he only learns from the bible like you.

I have shown you there is no false dichotomy the "dichotomy" is your word. There is a difference between a believer and a disciple.

your stated position is wrong....everyone has offered you correction which once again you refuse

Very few believers are willing to be disciples

All believers are disciples....everyone who God has saved. Real Christians are disciples...Jesus disciples.

. Are you? Are you willing to forsake all and follow Christ? Christ was quite literal when he said that.

We who hold to what is called...LORDSHIP SALVATION...hold this to be true. When that comes up...you object..Cautious
Why are you always on the wrong side of the issue?

You may be a believer, but I doubt if you are a disciple.

All real christians are disciples....they do not follow some set of fundamentalist rules but they follow Jesus teaching...

I go to the Scriptures. Where do you go??

This same puffed up statement as if he did not go to the scripture. He does..but he goes with understanding and a teachable spirit so he learns things that you do not.

I have provided enough scripture and you haven't refuted any of it.

.[/QUOTE]
YOU HAVE NOT MADE YOUR CASE BY THE VERSES USED.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I get my teachings from God's Word. How can I get them from these men, not having read them. I refer to the odd commentary like Walvoord's but usually to check what I already believe. I don't get my beliefs from them.

That's not true you've already quoted Hodges and stated you've read and have The Bible Knowledge Commentary, which, by the way, was edited by Walvoord. 'Yet you've not read them'. That's not true.

My beliefs are found in the Word of God. It is the "old book," so they aren't new at all, are they?

Your system of beliefs are newer. They've come from Finneyism, Hodges, Sandeman, Walvoord, Ryrie.

Pay attention. I have shown post after post. I have shown you there is no false dichotomy the "dichotomy" is your word. There is a difference between a believer and a disciple. Very few believers are willing to be disciples. Are you? Are you willing to forsake all and follow Christ? Christ was quite literal when he said that. Levi left his tax-revenue business and all of its profits right in the middle of the street, and followed Christ. He rose up and followed Christ; no questions asked. But Americans (like the rich young ruler) enjoy the comforts of home too much to do what Levi did. It is too much of a sacrifice--the cost is too much to become a disciple. You may be a believer, but I doubt if you are a disciple.

Then, as you do, daily, you slander and go ad hominem. Your false teachings on the disciple/believer dichotomy have been etched in your mind by fundies. That and you can't distinguish between literal and figurative language. There is nothing wrong with having things or comforts, it is when they have you. It is about renouncing them and having Christ as all in comparison and does not mean we literally have to sell off things. I pray someday you will see this.

 

[DHK]

That's not true you've already quoted Hodges and stated you've read and have The Bible Knowledge Commentary, which, by the way, was edited by Walvoord. 'Yet you've not read them'. That's not true.

Some of them I have not read. But you never understood what I wrote. I don't go to them to get the beliefs I already have. Look! I read many gospel sermons by preachers such as Moody and Spurgeon. That doesn't mean I don't understand the gospel. It means I enjoy reading messages written by them whether they are about the gospel or other topics.. So why are falsely accusing me. Sometimes I will quote another commentary because he has written on some topic more concisely than what I could have written on the same topic. It doesn't mean I got my teaching from him.
Your logic is this.
You believe in the trinity, and therefore you are a Roman Catholic because they believe in the trinity as well. That is the logic you are using. It is one of association. It is not logic but illogical. If I have the same beliefs or similar beliefs of another man don't accuse me of getting my beliefs from him then maybe I will stop thinking your are a Catholic because you believe in the Trinity.

Your system of beliefs are newer. They've come from Finneyism, Hodges, Sandeman, Walvoord, Ryrie.

My beliefs are from the Bible. They are not new at all. Your beliefs are from Catholicism.
Finney is one whom I have denounced as a heretic as have many others on this board.
I also have denounced Augustine as a heretic, but if you are a Calvinist then you are an Augustinian, aren't you. Two can play this game. I don't know who Sandeman is; I have no idea who you are referring to. Ryrie I very seldom refer to if ever. And Walvoord's commentary I have. He wrote one of the NT commentaries in the NT.

Then, as you do, daily, you slander and go ad hominem. Your false teachings on the disciple/believer dichotomy have been etched in your mind by fundies. That and you can't distinguish between literal and figurative language. There is nothing wrong with having things or comforts, it is when they have you. It is about renouncing them and having Christ as all in comparison and does not mean we literally have to sell off things. I pray someday you will see this.

Clean up your own back yard before charging others with ad hominems.
I am not the one with false teaching.
If you are charging Christ with allegory then why not make his death and resurrection allegory as well. Just pick and choose at random.
I never said that "having things" was wrong. It isn't. However, a disciple is one who is willing and even will give up those things for the sake of Christ. That hits hard and your insulted by those words of Jesus. There were many that left Jesus because of those words. They were not willing to be his disciples. Some of them were willing to believe on his name, but not follow him. I have already pointed this out to you in an exposition of Luke 9:57-62. Odd that post has not been refuted.
Three believers, would-be disciples come to Jesus. They count the cost, and though they believe in Christ they don't follow him. Why?

Let me guess. You live in America. (I knew that) Go to a Reformed Church. You believe "Jesus did it all." And therefore conclude; "I don't have to do anything." which is the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Everything has been pre-determined. Thus your anti-discipleship tirades.

 

[Iconoclast]

very irrational......

 

[DHK]

Some Christians grow in the faith more quickly than others. Anyone who has held a leadership position in a church knows that. Some Christians, when they are saved, change their lives utterly in a moment; others take longer. Some take to reading their Bible like a duck to water; others, who are not used to reading anything much, struggle with the word.

Quite true. I agree. Every believer goes through different stages of growth.

But where there is no growth; where there is no repentance, no change of behaviour, I say that there is no spiritual life. Such a person is most unlikely to be a Christian, whatever 'sinner's prayer' he may have prayed, and therefore he should not be baptized and not brought into church membership.

Agreed.

But the idea of an elite grade of 'disciples' is quite unbiblical, and actually Pharisaic. Of course those who promote such theories always place themselves in the elite group. "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats at the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces and to be called, 'Rabbi, Rabbi. But you, do not be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren" (Matt. 23:6-8).

Jesus had many that believed on him, like one of the ten lepers. But was that one a disciple? It doesn't say. A disciple is one who is willing to count the cost of following Jesus, not just believing on his name for salvation. Many have done that. It doesn't take away from their salvation. But how far are they willing to go? Are they going to count the cost "of discipleship"? It comes with a price--a price most people are not willing to pay.
You quoted a passage speaking of unsaved hypocritical Pharisees which have nothing to do with this.
Martin, I looked at your blog, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing and have gone out of your way to leave your home and go to another country and there do something for Christ. That is what I am speaking about. Most people won't even do that much. They won't forsake the comforts of their own home to go to places like you went and to engage in some activity like you did. You first had to sit down and count the cost: "Can I do this"? That is what discipleship is all about.

These men were not believers. The first man offered to follow our Lord without any idea of what that would mean. The other two gave excuses for not following Him. Nowhere does the Lord Jesus suggest that these men are saved.

That is a matter of interpretation. He doesn't suggest that they are unsaved, only that they are unwilling to follow him wherever he was willing to go--they hadn't thought things through, counted the cost of "following him," or "being his disciple."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

DHK,
You are very kind but please don't try to graft me into your society of 'disciples.' I was able to go to Lesotho because I was wealthy enough to afford to go, that is all. I know my own failings and weaknesses too well to think of myself as any sort of 'elite' Christian. Also, had I done a hundred times more than I have done for Christ, I would still be an 'unprofitable servant' (Luke 17:10).

There has been no greater missionary than William Carey who first took the Gospel to India, but he instructed that he should have no other epitaph on his grave than these lines by Isaac Watts:
'A wretched, poor and helpless worm,
On Thy kind arms I fall.'

That is a matter of interpretation. He doesn't suggest that they are unsaved, only that they are unwilling to follow him wherever he was willing to go--they hadn't thought things through, counted the cost of "following him," or "being his disciple."

If a man will not follow Christ, he is not a Christian, end of story.

 

[DHK]

Wealthy or not is not the point. C.T. Studd was a very wealthy man as a professional cricket player. He ended up going as a missionary to China.
As I mentioned before most Americans never get out of their own state let alone their own city. They have no idea what it is like in a third world country or a developing nation. They live too comfortably to ever forsake those comforts to do even as you did. The Great Commission was never rescinded. It doesn't command us to stay home. We have opportunities to travel today as we never before had in history. We have opportunities to make a difference in other parts of the world where the gospel has never been heard. But it seems that people just don't care. A true disciple would. Jesus indicated that as he defined what a disciple was.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Studd gave away a fortune valued at around $30 million at today's value, but the only donor commended by our Lord is the widow who gave her mite.

I think our conversation has run its course now. I'll just leave you with one more text: John 13:34-5. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.'

Love is what makes one a disciple; it is the first and greatest fruit of the Spirit, and without it, whatever sacrifice anyone may make, whatever he may give away, whatever faraway countries he may visit, it won't make him a Christian (1 Cor. 13:1-3).