Do all people hear the gospel?

[philg]

Originally posted by whetstone:
This is an important question to ask and it has devastating consequences for those with Arminian-like theology.

If all people HAVE heard the gospel, why are missionaries still feverishly translating the Bible into new languages that have never heard the name of Christ?

If all people HAVEN'T heard the gospel, then all people haven't gotten the same chance to accept Christ. If this is true- why couldn't God give all people an equal shot? Either: a) He wasn't capable of doing it or b) He chose not to do it.

What is your answer?

Because it has not been translated in their language they could not have heard and could not have been saved?

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; rev 5:9

Every tounge....

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by philg:
Because it has not been translated in their language they could not have heard and could not have been saved?

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; rev 5:9

Every tounge....(sic)

Just because scripture hasn't been translated into all languages, doesn't mean at least one person from every language hasn't accepted Christ by someone showing them a portion of scripture or quoting verses. My point of bringing up translation was to show that not all tongues have the scriptures- and not all people have heard the name of Christ.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by philg:
Because it has not been translated in their language they could not have heard and could not have been saved?

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; rev 5:9


Every tounge....(sic)

Just because scripture hasn't been translated into all languages, doesn't mean at least one person from every language hasn't accepted Christ by someone showing them a portion of scripture or quoting verses. My point of bringing up translation was to show that not all tongues have the scriptures- and not all people have heard the name of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]This is, of course, your assumption and not fact.

 

[philg]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by philg:
Because it has not been translated in their language they could not have heard and could not have been saved?

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; rev 5:9

Every tounge....(sic)

Just because scripture hasn't been translated into all languages, doesn't mean at least one person from every language hasn't accepted Christ by someone showing them a portion of scripture or quoting verses. My point of bringing up translation was to show that not all tongues have the scriptures- and not all people have heard the name of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Who in the old testament heard the name Jesus Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's no wonder you strain at Calvinism.

See? We agree!!

Romans 10 is a hard pill for Calvinism to swallow.

INSTEAD of presenting salvation as PRECEEDING the choice for Christ - we find that the choices shown in Romans 10 RESULT in salvation!!

That is the "distinctive" of the Arminian model as compared to the errors we see as "Calvinism".

And "yes" that means we have a "difficult time" with those errors being promoted.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Having made that point - it is "odd" that the specifics about the "Gospel Witness" described in Romans 10 and Romans 1 and Psalms 19 (as quoted in the posts above) are being ignored by the Calvinists on this thread.

Or should I say "instructive" instead of "odd"??

 

[jdcanady]

BobRyan

You quoted John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself".

There are times when the phrase "all men" in Greek can simply mean "all kinds of men" or more directly, both "Jews and Gentiles".

Such is the case with John 12:32. This particular dialog by Jesus began when He was informed that Gentiles were seeking Him (v.20-22). He announces that His time (for death) has come, that He will be crucified and that He will draw "all men" (meaning all kinds of men, or both Jews and Gentiles) to Himself.

The context favors this interpretation. Hopes that helps.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by jdcanady:
BobRyan

You quoted John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself".

There are times when the phrase "all men" in Greek can simply mean "all kinds of men" or more directly, both "Jews and Gentiles".

Such is the case with John 12:32. This particular dialog by Jesus began when He was informed that Gentiles were seeking Him (v.20-22). He announces that His time (for death) has come, that He will be crucified and that He will draw "all men" (meaning all kinds of men, or both Jews and Gentiles) to Himself.

The context favors this interpretation. Hopes that helps.

But there are only two kinds of man based on what you post, and Jesus said that he will draw ALL men if that means only two kinds of men, Jesus, the master of economy in words, would have said, "I draw both kinds of men".

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
But there are only two kinds of man based on what you post, and Jesus said that he will draw ALL men if that means only two kinds of men, Jesus, the master of economy in words, would have said, "I draw both kinds of men".

Guess his english just wasn't as good as yours or mine wes

 

[jdcanady]

Again, the meaning of the Greek words allow for "all men" to mean "all kinds of men", or, as the context of this verse shows, both Jews and Gentiles.

There were only two kinds of men in Jewish thought: Jews and everyone who wasn't a Jew (i.e. a Gentile) Even a "God-fearer" Gentile was still a Gentile.

 

[jdcanady]

The point is that when Jesus said He would draw "all men" to Himself, that doesn't necessarily mean every person on the planet. The context, and word usage of the Greek, indicates that His meaning was that He would draw both Jews and Gentiles to Himself. That would have been very significant to those Jews (and Gentiles) who were listening.

That is consistent with other scripture which indicates a "choosing" by God in the salvation event. John 10:26, for instance, "But you do not believe because you are not my sheep" or Romans 9:21-23, "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power know, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory?"

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by jdcanady:
Again, the meaning of the Greek words allow for "all men" to mean "all kinds of men", or, as the context of this verse shows, both Jews and Gentiles.

There were only two kinds of men in Jewish thought: Jews and everyone who wasn't a Jew (i.e. a Gentile) Even a "God-fearer" Gentile was still a Gentile.

...Or it most likelly means "all men", as in ALL men...

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by jdcanady:
The point is that when Jesus said He would draw "all men" to Himself, that doesn't necessarily mean every person on the planet. The context, and word usage of the Greek, indicates that His meaning was that He would draw both Jews and Gentiles to Himself. That would have been very significant to those Jews (and Gentiles) who were listening.

That is consistent with other scripture which indicates a "choosing" by God in the salvation event. John 10:26, for instance, "But you do not believe because you are not my sheep" or Romans 9:21-23, "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power know, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory?"

What would be consistent with scripture is "all men" meaning ALL men, as in God wants NOONE (opposite of everyone/all) to perish..., God so loves the WORLD (all men)..., WHOSOEVER (whoever out of everyone) believes...

Romans 9 is using hyperbole. It does NOT mean God DOES make one to be a garbage can and another as a stunning vessel, but rather HE CAN. Notice the "what if" and "doesn't God have the right...". Does not mean God exercises that right.

 

[jdcanady]

Webdog

I am pointing out the context of the verse. Jesus begins the dialog when He is informed the Gentiles are seeking to speak to Him. The context gives it it's most likely meaning.

Romans 9 is not hyperbole since Paul is explaining how God has actually acted in the lives of real people, like Pharaoh. (v.18) "So then He has mercy on whom He desires,and He hardens whom He desires." Paul does not say "He can have mercy...He says that He does have mercy....or He does harden... It is not hyperbole, it is an explanation. The vessels of mercy are defined as "us" here and chp1v7: "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints"), and includes both Jews and Gentiles (v24)

The "whosoever" of John 3:16 was defined by Jesus in John 3:8 as those who are "born again" according to the will of the Spirit of God.

Gotta go, I'll answer your comments if I get time.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by jdcanady:

You quoted John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself".

There are times when the phrase "all men" in Greek can simply mean "all kinds of men" or more directly, both "Jews and Gentiles".

Possibly - but such is not the case in John 12.

To fulfill "one of each kind - a Jew and a Gentile" one simply has to get "one" from each. This "downsizing" of the Gospel is only done in Calvinism because it is devastating to let the "unqualified ALL" remain in John 12 its large massive context shows it to apply to ALL. Not just one from each group!!

The "marketeering" approach where ALL just means "A couple from each of two groups" is never the low-road taken by scripture.

John 12
25 "" He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 ""If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ does not say “only some of those who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of those who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

The statement above works as an all inclusive showing that to EVERYONE the call goes out and ANYONE may choose to serve, to honor, to follow Christ.

By Contrast – Christ shows that the message about being celebate is NOT for all mankind or even all of His followers. Matt 19:11

27 "" Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, " Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "" Father, glorify Your name.'' Then a voice came out of heaven: ""I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.''
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "" An angel has spoken to Him.''
30 Jesus answered and said, "" This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 ""And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.''

Christ is not using a slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human”. Yet for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here. Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[jdcanady]

Bob

I have simply pointed out the context. Your conclusions are simply convoluted. "slippery marketing tactic"? That is just plain nonsense. I see you are not looking for a discussion, but an argument. That's not what I am looking for.

 

[BobRyan]

If by "Convoluted" you mean "paying attentionn to the details given in scripture" and "believing just what it says" -- then .... I suppose you are right.

"I will draw ALL unto Me" and "God so loved THE WORLD" and "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

The is the larger view of the Gospel.

The "Downsized gospel" says that "ALL" really just means a few of each KIND of person.

How sad.

IF that obvious point has to be spun as "convoluted" by those who reject it -- then so be it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

This is the weakest of all arminian "proofs".

Arminianism certainly doesn't solve the problem you assign to calvinism.

The only people who can use this to bash calvinists over the head legitimately are the universalists or open theists.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by whetstone:
If all people HAVE heard the gospel, why are missionaries still feverishly translating the Bible into new languages that have never heard the name of Christ?

It is a fact that not all have heard the Gospel. The inhabitants of the Hawaiian Islands didn't hear the Gospel until relatively recently. The Native American Indians had no knowlege of the Gospel until the arrival of westerners (unless you believe the Mormons).

Does that mean God doesn't provide for them? Dunno, not my place to judge. Does that mean we're doing them a disservice by introducing the Gospel and making them accountable? The last tiem I checked, the Gospel was about more than just saving souls. It was about sharing a relationship with our Heavenly Father and His Son, and savoring the rewards of that relationship while we are alive on the earth. Regardless of the salvation arminian/calvinist issue, is it right for us to withhold that relationship?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

This is the weakest of all arminian "proofs".

Arminianism certainly doesn't solve the problem you assign to calvinism.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually it is one of many texts that are totally devastating to the Calvinist POV.

Arminianism believes the text as in "God REALLY IS unwilling that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and views that ALL as a "REAL ALL" not the fake downsized thing that Calvinism eisegetes the text to be.

So when Christ said "I will draw ALL mankind" John 12:32 - and when God saw "I take no pleasure in ANYONE who dies" Ezek 18 and when Peter says "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and when Paul declares that God wants "all mankind to be saved" 1Tim 2 and when ...

Well you see that the ALL is a CONSISTENT ALL as applied to the Gospel reach of God and the Gospel range/focus/grasp of God who "SO loved the WORLD" that He gave His Son as an "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT our sins ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

In each case this Gospel that sends Christ to be "The Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:14 is incredibly "consistent" on ALL!!!

Texts fully embraced anticipated and NEEDED in Arminianism though rejected by Calvinism. Resulting in a total defeat for Calvinists who have to "pretend" that Arminianism would not like this "ALL inclusive" Gospel any more than Calvinism does!

In Christ,

Bob