I added a "s'. My dog is a Baptist. But I think he may be a Reformed Baptist (not sure why). We argue about it sometimes.What does your dog have to do with you going to heaven? I'm assuming you omitted the apostrophe, of course.
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Do animals have souls and or spirits?
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
Not 100%
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
"Train up a dog in the way he should go...."
What's going on in Matthew 8? I believe proof that evil spirits can possess animals. What's going on in Numbers 22? Proof that good or holy spirits can possess animals.
A couple of differences in the two episodes that I see anyway is that the unclean spirits needed Jesus' permission to possess the swine. And Balaam's ass lived through his episode, although it does look like it got slapped around a little bit.
I see no where where we're called to witness to animals or preach against some of their behaviors to them, and they do got some disgusting behaviors that ought to be preached against, I'm sayin'.
They'll be feasts in heaven, will we all be vegetarians?
A couple of differences in the two episodes that I see anyway is that the unclean spirits needed Jesus' permission to possess the swine. And Balaam's ass lived through his episode, although it does look like it got slapped around a little bit.
I see no where where we're called to witness to animals or preach against some of their behaviors to them, and they do got some disgusting behaviors that ought to be preached against, I'm sayin'.
They'll be feasts in heaven, will we all be vegetarians?
God uses spirits/angels for his purposes (e.g. 1 Kings 22:19-23).
So granted, they can possess people and animals.
The idea in the opening post was, 'Do animals have souls or spirits of their own?'
Since we can't exactly pin down what the human soul is, it is hard to claim that an animal has a soul of its own.
Some animals are SOULISH. They exhibit aspects of human beings that make us want to believe that they have eternal worth.
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They'll be feasts in heaven, will we all be vegetarians?
A friend of mine ponders that there might be bacon trees in heaven,
...because who could believe that there wouldn't be bacon in heaven.
Rob
You are correct about the original intent of the thread. My bad
When did your dog make a profession of faith? Baptized yet?
Not sure when. He is adopted.
I don't believe so. I've killed thousands and thousands of poultry, plus dozens of coons, hogs, possums, deer, etc. I've not seen anything showing any kind of spiritual intelligence, just raw animal instinct. When I shoot a hog for instance, at hog killing time, his buddy often comes over and starts licking up his buddy's blood.
The intelligence often varies by animal to some degree, and I don't think that's evidence of a soul. I don't think pigs and dogs have souls while rabbits don't simply because hogs and dogs are smarter.
IMO the current zeitgeist of people treating creatures, such as dogs and cats, as their "children" or as part of the "family" is an extension of post-modernism where anybody can believe anything and humans are not better than animals, and has led to "animals in heaven" beliefs. The truth about "fluffy" is that when you stop pampering him and let him run wild he shows his true colors and gets into my chicken flock then starts tearing my chickens apart spraying blood everywhere until I end it with a 12 gauge.
That'll be a solid NO on animal souls for me after having killed thousands of them, but I agree that animals will be recreated in their correct state when God brings forth the New Heavens and New Earth. I don't know at that point how God will create them. Perhaps then they will be indwelt with souls, who knows?
The intelligence often varies by animal to some degree, and I don't think that's evidence of a soul. I don't think pigs and dogs have souls while rabbits don't simply because hogs and dogs are smarter.
IMO the current zeitgeist of people treating creatures, such as dogs and cats, as their "children" or as part of the "family" is an extension of post-modernism where anybody can believe anything and humans are not better than animals, and has led to "animals in heaven" beliefs. The truth about "fluffy" is that when you stop pampering him and let him run wild he shows his true colors and gets into my chicken flock then starts tearing my chickens apart spraying blood everywhere until I end it with a 12 gauge.
That'll be a solid NO on animal souls for me after having killed thousands of them, but I agree that animals will be recreated in their correct state when God brings forth the New Heavens and New Earth. I don't know at that point how God will create them. Perhaps then they will be indwelt with souls, who knows?
I will ask, where does the death of fauna and flora come from?
Also your thoughts as to the following thought.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 KJV
Had God not breathed into the nostrils of what had been formed form the dust of the ground would it have returned to the dust of the ground because of never having been made living ie to be?
Was what was made from the dust of the ground going to have to be changed in nature in order to have life inherent in itself? Was the first man Adam the living soul natural or spiritual? Consider 1 Cor 15:45,46 following
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
What does that Greek word for natural come from? ψυχικόν Is it relative to soul?
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
Why?
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels
Why?
Wince is the death? Who has the power of the death?
What/who was being addressed in the garden of Eden?
Through whom? The following? Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Man and the Son of Man?
Is it through man being redeemed out of death that that the devil and his works are destroyed?
Also your thoughts as to the following thought.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 KJV
Had God not breathed into the nostrils of what had been formed form the dust of the ground would it have returned to the dust of the ground because of never having been made living ie to be?
Was what was made from the dust of the ground going to have to be changed in nature in order to have life inherent in itself? Was the first man Adam the living soul natural or spiritual? Consider 1 Cor 15:45,46 following
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
What does that Greek word for natural come from? ψυχικόν Is it relative to soul?
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
Why?
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels
Why?
Wince is the death? Who has the power of the death?
What/who was being addressed in the garden of Eden?
Through whom? The following? Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Man and the Son of Man?
Is it through man being redeemed out of death that that the devil and his works are destroyed?
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So where do we get the idea that animals have souls?
Percho offered us another verse where nephesh is used.
And ithese three verses (Ge 1:20-21 and 2:7) that use the same Hebrew words and steer an English-speaking interpreter to that direction.
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature* that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
*soul
Genesis 1:20–21 (AV 1873)
Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”
And God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:20–21 (NASB 2020)
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים יִשְׁרְצ֣וּ הַמַּ֔יִם שֶׁ֖רֶץ נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֑ה וְעֹוף֙ יְעֹופֵ֣ף עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ עַל־פְּנֵ֖י רְקִ֥יעַ הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃
וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־הַתַּנִּינִ֖ם הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים וְאֵ֣ת כָּל־נֶ֣פֶשׁ הַֽחַיָּ֣ה׀ הָֽרֹמֶ֡שֶׂת אֲשֶׁר֩ שָׁרְצ֨וּ הַמַּ֜יִם לְמִֽינֵהֶ֗ם וְאֵ֨ת כָּל־עֹ֤וף כָּנָף֙ לְמִינֵ֔הוּ וַיַּ֥רְא אֱלֹהִ֖ים כִּי־טֹֽוב׃
Genesis 1:20–21 (BHS)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (AV 1873)
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person*.
*soul
Genesis 2:7 (NASB 2020)
וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃
Genesis 2:7 BHS
Rob
Percho offered us another verse where nephesh is used.
And ithese three verses (Ge 1:20-21 and 2:7) that use the same Hebrew words and steer an English-speaking interpreter to that direction.
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature* that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
*soul
Genesis 1:20–21 (AV 1873)
Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”
And God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:20–21 (NASB 2020)
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים יִשְׁרְצ֣וּ הַמַּ֔יִם שֶׁ֖רֶץ נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֑ה וְעֹוף֙ יְעֹופֵ֣ף עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ עַל־פְּנֵ֖י רְקִ֥יעַ הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃
וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־הַתַּנִּינִ֖ם הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים וְאֵ֣ת כָּל־נֶ֣פֶשׁ הַֽחַיָּ֣ה׀ הָֽרֹמֶ֡שֶׂת אֲשֶׁר֩ שָׁרְצ֨וּ הַמַּ֜יִם לְמִֽינֵהֶ֗ם וְאֵ֨ת כָּל־עֹ֤וף כָּנָף֙ לְמִינֵ֔הוּ וַיַּ֥רְא אֱלֹהִ֖ים כִּי־טֹֽוב׃
Genesis 1:20–21 (BHS)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (AV 1873)
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person*.
*soul
Genesis 2:7 (NASB 2020)
וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃
Genesis 2:7 BHS
Rob
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You guys remind me of the poem by Kipling: The Power of the Dog
The last verse:
"We've sorrow enough in the natural way,
When it comes to burying Christian clay.
Our loves are not given but only lent,
At compound interest of cent per cent.
Though it is not always the case, I believe,
The longer we've kept 'em the more do we grieve:
For, when debts are payable, right or wrong,
A short time loan is as bad as a long-
So why in - Heaven (before we are there)
Should we give our hearts to a dog to tear?
If you've ever had one you know what he's talking about.
The last verse:
"We've sorrow enough in the natural way,
When it comes to burying Christian clay.
Our loves are not given but only lent,
At compound interest of cent per cent.
Though it is not always the case, I believe,
The longer we've kept 'em the more do we grieve:
For, when debts are payable, right or wrong,
A short time loan is as bad as a long-
So why in - Heaven (before we are there)
Should we give our hearts to a dog to tear?
If you've ever had one you know what he's talking about.
My Bible Study group knows that I refuse to pray for pets.
I understand that people love them but I also know that there are so many other things of higher importance.
Rob
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You are right of course. All I know is that when I had the vet come out to our house to put down my Brittany I held it together until he left but after that it was a lot like when Tom Hanks lost Wilson on the raft. Thank God no one else was home. It makes no sense.
I had a small standard dachshund many many years ago.
He aged and for the last few years had to be carried outside to do his business.
Eventually he couldn't even stand up and I decided I'd put him to sleep.
I gathered the appropriate drugs and unsuccessfully attempted to cannulate a vein.
So I took him to the vet. It was very clinical. I knew the time was right.
The vet easily obtained venous access and put my dog down (no charge).
... and my tears started... I cried all the way home.
It still affects me.
I learned something about myself that day.
Rob
He aged and for the last few years had to be carried outside to do his business.
Eventually he couldn't even stand up and I decided I'd put him to sleep.
I gathered the appropriate drugs and unsuccessfully attempted to cannulate a vein.
So I took him to the vet. It was very clinical. I knew the time was right.
The vet easily obtained venous access and put my dog down (no charge).
... and my tears started... I cried all the way home.
It still affects me.
I learned something about myself that day.
Rob
37818
Well-Known Member
Animals have souls. Leviticus 17:11.
Sorry, I don't see any proof of your point there. I just see an adroit use of nephesh (which has a very wide range of meaning) by Moses to indicate both "life" and "soul." While it is certainly true that animals and humans both have blood, and without blood animals and humans are dead, the verse is not saying that animals have souls, but only that they have blood. The verse says "your souls" to humans.
37818
Well-Known Member
Well there is also the first Hebrew reference. Genesis 1:20, נֶ֣פֶשׁ
And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. -- John Darby Translation.
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RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
If an animal possesses a soul, it is an animal soul, not human. We needn’t anthropomorphize.
Some animals do possess a soulish ability to relate to humans, just not on a human level.
Some animals do possess a soulish ability to relate to humans, just not on a human level.