Do Baptists believe in the Trinity?

[JohnDeereFan]

What if the "angel" that you are speaking of in the Old Testament is Christ? angels are not called "god" anywhere in Scripture but Christ is.

Yeah, I'm a little curious about that one, myself. The only instance in the OT where I can find an angel being called "God" is in one of the Christophanies where Christ is described as an "angel".

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Come on, explain this Notified

Properly educated on the trinity through scripture study. A very new born again Christian may not be able to make the distinction and have a vague awarness. They may know they are saved through their faith in Jesus Christ but how the trinity works may take a little more time. Thats what I mean. If they know from the begining that's good but more often I find that people coming to the Lord generally really don't know much more than they need him and want him in their lives.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Hebrews is the best letter to completely destroy the Trinity.

How exactly does it do that?

The priest gives intercession between God and man. Christ is the priest. The mediator mediates between God and man. Christ is the mediator. God loves Christ and will do all for him, so if we reside in Christ, he will do for us.

None of this "destroys the Trinity". Christ is the unique mediator between God and man as He is both God and man, as Scripture and the Church teaches. In fact Scripture states repeatedly that Christ before He became Incarnate pre-existed as the One through whom all things were made, both visible and invisible.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hebrews 8 speaks of Christ as our priest and the establishment of the new covenant or promise that resides in Christ, which is that Christ will return and redeem the righteous through faith in him and establish a Kingdom. The Baptists, based on their first statement of faith, recognized this coming kingdom on earth. Apparently, not any more.

It says: "For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things."

Christ is our one and only high priest who was 1. appointed and 2. dwells in Heaven to offer the TRUE heavenly things to the Father rather than the "copy or shadow." Heb 8:1 says that he sits by the right hand of the throne. We simply have to look at the makeup of any kingdom to see that the right hand was the place for the chief advisor or the son. The prince or advisor was not as great as the king, but still held power over the kingdom.

Hebrews is the best letter to completely destroy the Trinity. The priest gives intercession between God and man. Christ is the priest. The mediator mediates between God and man. Christ is the mediator. God loves Christ and will do all for him, so if we reside in Christ, he will do for us. It is the same thing that Catholics do with saints or Mary, not realizing that it is Christ who gives intercession to the Father and not dead people to Christ.

Isa 9:6 uses the word El. It simply means Mighty One or power. It is used often as a title for the Most High, but it is also the singular form of elohim or Mighty Ones, which are the angels (and later the saints) who are manifestations of God. It is perfectly acceptable to refer to Christ by this title since 1. he is the perfect manifestation of the glory of God, 2. he has full authority over the power of the Most High, and 3. he shall be the mightiest on earth, sitting upon the throne of David. It is also acceptable to call him father for the same reasons. Even Paul called himself a father of the church. He is also deemed Yahweh of hosts or armies. Since angels can bear the title of God, so can the Son, who is greater than the angels.

I refer you to Gen 32:28 which says that Jacob wrestled with elohim. Hos 12:4 then proves that Jacob wrestled with mal'ak or angel.

Gen 18 shows the three men who appeared before Abraham. Two went on to Sodom while Abraham detained the other. Gen 19:1 calls the two mal'ak or angels. The third that was detained is dubbed Yahweh, translated LORD. Knowing that "no man has seen God" from John, Abraham was speaking to an angel.

Exo 3:2 (confirmed by Acts) says that a mal'ak or angel appeared in the bush to Moses. It then proceeds to call the angel elohim and Yahweh. In Exo 3:14, the angel says "I am who shall be" (translated I AM THAT I AM). In Exo 4, it proceeds to call the angel speaking as Yahweh or LORD. Thus, the angel bore the name and title of the Most High given to Moses.

Why can angels bear the titles of the Most High? Because they are all of one spirit and are manifestations of him, as the saints will be. "Yahweh our Elohim is one Yahweh (Deut 6:4)." It is the same as we bear the title of Christ when we "put on Christ." It is the same as the wife bearing the name and title of her husband.

If angels can bear the title of God, so can Christ who was made greater than the angels.

Man I have seen some theological gymnastics in my time but this garbage takes the prize. I have never seen anything so nutty in all my life.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Man I have seen some theological gymnastics in my time but this garbage takes the prize. I have never seen anything so nutty in all my life.

Yeah, that's why I haven't responded to it yet. I'm not ever sure where to start.

 

[DHK]

If I am correct, and he can correct me if I am wrong, Dust is a Christedelphian. Here is a summary of their beliefs:

1. They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)
2. They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)
3. They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)
4. They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)
5. They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)
6. They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)
7. They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).
8. They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)
9. They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
10. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)
11. They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)
12. They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)
13. They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)
14. They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71)
15. They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
16. They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).
17. They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17)
18. They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)
19. They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100)

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/what-do-christadelphians-teach

Almost all the essential doctrines of Christianity are denied especially the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Properly educated on the trinity through scripture study. A very new born again Christian may not be able to make the distinction and have a vague awarness. They may know they are saved through their faith in Jesus Christ but how the trinity works may take a little more time. Thats what I mean. If they know from the begining that's good but more often I find that people coming to the Lord generally really don't know much more than they need him and want him in their lives.

I once said on a forum that angels rejoice when a sinner repents, not because he/she understands Biblical theology.

Fits here maybe.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Properly educated on the trinity through scripture study. A very new born again Christian may not be able to make the distinction and have a vague awarness. They may know they are saved through their faith in Jesus Christ but how the trinity works may take a little more time. Thats what I mean. If they know from the begining that's good but more often I find that people coming to the Lord generally really don't know much more than they need him and want him in their lives.

I tend to agree that you don't need a perfect understanding of the Trinity to be saved, but I also think that a regenerate person will not reject the Trinity like Dust has. I don't claim to know if Dust is saved or not, but I highly doubt that he would reject the Trinity if he is.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I tend to agree that you don't need a perfect understanding of the Trinity to be saved, but I also think that a regenerate person will not reject the Trinity like Dust has. I don't claim to know if Dust is saved or not, but I highly doubt that he would reject the Trinity if he is.

Yes I can agree. Its definately a deep well.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Yeah, that's why I haven't responded to it yet. I'm not ever sure where to start.

there's some theology that shouldn't even be up for debate...this being one...it's one thing to come to a messeage board as this and seek understanding and something totally different in coming here to debate the Trinity itself...

i'm really suprised this thread is still active and Dust hasn't been banned, when even Roman Catholics aren't even allowed to join this board...makes no sense to me...

In XC
-

 

[Revmitchell]

there's some theology that shouldn't even be up for debate...this being one...it's one thing to come to a messeage board as this and seek understanding and something totally different in coming here to debate the Trinity itself...

i'm really suprised this thread is still active and Dust hasn't been banned, when even Roman Catholics aren't even allowed to join this board...makes no sense to me...

In XC
-

Ditto...............

 

[annsni]

But guess what?? Dust has brought us all together on the same side for the holidays!! Woo-hoo!! We all happen to agree on this one subject!

Thanks Dust for the wonderful Christmas gift. Agreement on BB. :laugh:

 

[lori4dogs]

But guess what?? Dust has brought us all together on the same side for the holidays!! Woo-hoo!! We all happen to agree on this one subject!

Thanks Dust for the wonderful Christmas gift. Agreement on BB. :laugh:

You got that right annsni. We are united on this one!

 

[rbell]

Does that mean to dust we shall return?

 

[Jon-Marc]

Do Baptists believe in the Trinity?

I wouldn't consider them to be Baptists if they don't. God is a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--the Great Three in One!

 

[HankD]

If I am correct, and he can correct me if I am wrong, Dust is a Christedelphian. Here is a summary of their beliefs:
[/LIST]http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/what-do-christadelphians-teach

Almost all the essential doctrines of Christianity are denied especially the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith.

Why even bother trying to answer his agenda?

He has erred in many things he has claimed. There is no future tense for verbs in Hebrew as he claims. Yet he assigns the tetragrammaton (YHWH - which by the way is a concatenation of the perfect, imperfect and adjectival form of "to be") as a "future tense".

Actually the tetragrammaton (YHWH) being the concatenation that it is means "the eternal one"

In Genesis 1:26 YHWH is not used but Elohim:

And God (Elohim, plural) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

Nowhere in the Scripture are angels ever said to be in the image and likeness of God. Whoever these personages within Elohim are in Genesis 1:26 are they are not angels.

Additionally there are two plural forms in Hebrew, Dual and more than 2.
Elohim is NOT dual, so there are more than two personages in Elohim.
There are three, Hebrew usually uses prefixes a cardinal number for greater than three of anything but not for three.

Then there is Genesis 3:22
In Genesis 3:22 we have the connective name of God "The LORD God" or "YHWH-Elohim"

22 And the LORD God (YHWH-Elohim) said (singular), Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

YHWH-Elohim literally means the Eternal Elohim. Those persons who make up the singular Godhead are therefore ALL eternal.​

He is also wrong (only gave you part of the sentence) about the Septuagint (LXX) and Exodus 3:14 when Moses said in Exodus 3:13 "What is his name? what shall I say unto them?"​

The Greek of the LXX in Exodus 3:14 uses exactly the words as Jesus uses in John 8:58 "EGO EIMI" for His name.
Jesus knew exactly what He was claiming and so did the pharisees.​

That is exactly why the pharisees took up stones to kill Him and the reason they eventually delivered Him to the Romans to be crucified.​

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

Actually if this list of Christadelphian doctrines above is accurate this "religion" is not Christian at all. I don't know what to call it but it's not Christian.​

HankD​

 

[lori4dogs]

'And God (Elohim, plural) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

Nor do angels have the ability to create.

 

[Marcia]

If I am correct, and he can correct me if I am wrong, Dust is a Christedelphian. Here is a summary of their beliefs:
[/LIST]
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/what-do-christadelphians-teach

Almost all the essential doctrines of Christianity are denied especially the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith.

Yes, and I pointed all this out on page one of this thread but no one seemed to notice!

There is a big difference between someone not understanding the Trinity and someone who belongs to a cult that denies the Trinity.

I'm surprised he's still here, too.

 

[HankD]

Yes, and I pointed all this out on page one of this thread but no one seemed to notice!

There is a big difference between someone not understanding the Trinity and someone who belongs to a cult that denies the Trinity.

I'm surprised he's still here, too.

We noticed Marcia (at least I did) and thank you for that.

We were waiting for a confirmation from "Dust" that this is his belief system.


HankD

 

[zrs6v4]

Its sad that pretty much anyone can take Scripture and paint their own picture. Everyone who does this claims to be using Scripture in the same way and not forcing their agenda. This is not only scary in false religions, but is even done in good doctrine oddly enough. I could be wrong by saying all of this, but I see the impossibility to know or do anything right without the Spirit (even if you say or do the right things externally). This is a good picture of our deceitful hearts or depraved nature. We all try to use Scripture to our advantage, and it is a horrible thought to come to the reality that I sometimes do that. It is very evident when in a wrongful debate, but you can see it passed down in the lines of false teaching pretty clearly. I think it is good to understand that they are where you were before you knew God and not scream at them as if their an idiot because arent we all? It's like kicking a dead person and telling them to get up as if they are just being stubborn. I am really humbled when I foolishly speak to someone who denies the essential doctrines of Christianity like there an idiot and then go home to my JW side of the family and speak to them about it like there a different person. Explain this to me, should we not speak to people like we do people we love, or does this show we really dont care most of the time? I dont know, you tell me.