Do Baptists believe in the Trinity?

[Marcia]

We noticed Marcia (at least I did) and thank you for that.

We were waiting for a confirmation from "Dust" that this is his belief system.


HankD

You're welcome.

It is what he posed on his Profile. That would seem to be confirmation.

 

[annsni]

You're welcome.

It is what he posed on his Profile. That would seem to be confirmation.

I agree - it's what he wrote on his profile and where I got the info.

 

[Marcia]

I agree - it's what he wrote on his profile and where I got the info.

Maybe Dust is gone? He hasn't posted anything lately.

Dust, are you still around?

 

[annsni]

I see he's been banned but the last time he was on was yesterday at 11 am.

 

[Marcia]

I see he's been banned but the last time he was on was yesterday at 11 am.

How did you see that?

That is in keeping with the policy here - this is a forum in which non-Baptist Christians can participate; the key word being "Christian."

Christadelphians, like JWs and Mormons, are a cult and deny one or more of the essentials of the faith such as the Trinity and/or deity of Christ (and maybe others as well -- usually one heresy leads to others) and are therefore not in the Christian faith. These kinds of denials go back to ancient heresies, which were denounced then and should continue to be rejected.

Oneness Pentecostals used to post here and tried very hard to propagate their denial of the Trinity. Finally, they were banned.

 

[annsni]

How did you see that?

If you go to his profile, it will show the last time he was on the board.

 

[HankD]

If you go to the O/P you will see he has been banned.

I didn't think to check his profile Marcia.

At least he received some truth and I presume (should he choose) he can still view the BB site but can't post.

HankD

 

[bound]

Is anyone here familiar with the 'origin' of Christadelphians?

 

[Darron Steele]

Is anyone here familiar with the 'origin' of Christadelphians?

I can find out.

It was a breakoff from the common root groups of what became
1) the Christian Connexion --> General Convention of the Christian Church, merged with the Congregationalists in 1931,
2) the Disciples of Christ + Churches of Christ + Independent Christian churches.

Being a Disciple and interested in our history, I have some books on that stuff. I will take a look. Please give me a few days.

I think it had something to do with `anti-creed'-ism. The idea of both streams of the Restoration was to throw away human creeds and go back to adhering to just the Bible. The Trinity is not something explicitly stated in Scripture. Some elements of the Restoration became opposed to the Trinity to the point they wanted to undermine it. The track of some of these people was to actually oppose the Deity/divinity of Jesus Christ, and I think that is what drew the Christadelphians off. I will check the books to confirm that.

In general, the rest of the two streams of the Restoration continued to hold the Deity/divinity of Jesus Christ, including people who did not believe in the precept of the Trinity.

 

[Matt Black]

It was also I think to do with a conscious rejection of the 'Constantinian Settlement' (a feature common to many streams of the Radical Reformation); in this view of church history, Constantine 'tainted' and corrupted the Church and thus everything since his edict of toleration must be rejected as suspect - including the Nicene Creed. Hence the dodgy Christology.

[ETA - IIRC, Melchior Hoffman fell into a similar error for similar reasons in the 1530s]

 

[Marcia]

Is anyone here familiar with the 'origin' of Christadelphians?

I heard about them as a new believer (it seems like I was confronted with an array of false beliefs and teachings as a new believer, including running into people who were teaching about these things) but can't recall exactly how I heard about them (I have not ever met one, though I did come across some of their literature being left at the Post Office).

Founded in 1833 by John Thomas (b. 12 April 1805, d. 1871) in the USA, although it wasn't offically called Christadelphians until 1865, a name chosen by John Thomas which had been used by some branches before then. They're big on end-times prophecies and doom-and-gloom stuff, although in New Zealand are nowhere near as high-profile as the Seventh-Day Adventists on that topic. Each Christadelphian branch is operated independently and is called an "ecclesia" - from the Greek word meaning church. Unlike other cults of Christianity such as JWs and Mormons, Christadelphians have no formal hierarchy, and instead get things done by committee, with Christadelphian members being voted onto the committees on a yearly basis. On the theological side of things the Christadelphians think that Jesus is a created being and that he was born with a sinful nature* (and yet never actually sinned), the Holy Spirit is just the "power" of God, there is no personal devil (they believe the devil is just the impulse to do evil), no Hell, etc - all of which contradicts Christian teaching. On the practical side, Christadelphians believe people are saved by works, which means they have to do stuff (like the Jehovah's Witnesses' belief that JWs have to go door knocking to be saved). To be saved (or become Christadelphian members) Christadelphians have to be baptised, which involves an interview (described by some as a "lengthy interrogation") by other Christadelphians to see if they have an intellectual understanding in accordance with John Thomas' teachings. Some ecclesia are thought to have at times discouraged membership of groups outside of the Christadelphians (eg, women's social club, after-school sports, etc), perhaps for being too worldly, but for many New Zealand branches this has apparently not been an issue. Women are supposed to keep silent in church but are allowed to teach children. The 1996 NZ Census showed a little over 1700 members in New Zealand.

http://www.cults.co.nz/c.php#christadelphians

Here is a lot of info:
http://www.carm.org/christadelphianism

including a page on their history
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/christadelphian-history

Christadelphianism is a religious movement begun by Dr. John Thomas who was born in London England on April 12, 1805. In 1832 he immigrated to the United States. On the way to New York, his ship encountered several terrible storms that threatened shipwreck and death. Dr. Thomas promised God that if he were delivered, he would devote his life to the study of religion. He made it to America and kept his promise.


Upon arrival, he joined the Campbellite group also known as the Disciples. He was baptized and began to study. He studied greatly and soon found himself at odds with the Campbellites and left. Many from the Campbellite group followed him. This is the beginning of the Christadelphian movement, though it wasn’t called that yet.


In 1834 Dr. Thomas started a magazine called "The Apostolic Advocate." This is where he really began to disseminate his teachings. He was greatly interested in prophecy and devoted much effort to understanding biblical eschatology.


In 1839 Thomas moved to Illinois and in 1842 he became editor of a magazine called "The Investigator." Five years later, he started another magazine called "The Herald of the Future Age." By this time he was living in Virginia.


In 1848, near the time when Christadelphianism was founded in America, he returned to England to speak on his brand of religion and found the soil there fertile. To this day, England has the largest number of Christadelphians. <MORE>

 

[Johnv]

Is anyone here familiar with the 'origin' of Christadelphians?

Marcia beat me to it, so take a moment to go over the aforementioned info. The core beliefs of Christadelphianism are directly contrary to core scriptural beliefs. To that there can be no debate.

 

[Eric B]

I can find out.

It was a breakoff from the common root groups of what became
1) the Christian Connexion --> General Convention of the Christian Church, merged with the Congregationalists in 1931,
2) the Disciples of Christ + Churches of Christ + Independent Christian churches.

Being a Disciple and interested in our history, I have some books on that stuff. I will take a look. Please give me a few days.

I think it had something to do with `anti-creed'-ism. The idea of both streams of the Restoration was to throw away human creeds and go back to adhering to just the Bible. The Trinity is not something explicitly stated in Scripture. Some elements of the Restoration became opposed to the Trinity to the point they wanted to undermine it. The track of some of these people was to actually oppose the Deity/divinity of Jesus Christ, and I think that is what drew the Christadelphians off. I will check the books to confirm that.

In general, the rest of the two streams of the Restoration continued to hold the Deity/divinity of Jesus Christ, including people who did not believe in the precept of the Trinity.

Oh, wow! Even I didn't know that!. For some reason, I could never find much information on the Christadelphians. All I really knew of them was what was written in "cult"-books, and the biggest thing that stuck out was of course their unitarianism.

So they're related to Campbellism. Interesting!
Then, how many people know that the JW's are connected to the Adventists, and that the Adventists, Campbellists, and most other sects came out of Methodism?

 

[Darron Steele]

Oh, wow! Even I didn't know that!. For some reason, I could never find much information on the Christadelphians. All I really knew of them was what was written in "cult"-books, and the biggest thing that stuck out was of course their unitarianism.

So they're related to Campbellism. Interesting!...

Actually, I am not sure that is so. It was related to the Restoration Movement. Alexander Campbell himself did not subscribe to everything that gets called "Campbellism."

Restorationism is not "Campbellism." The Restoration Movement had two streams and several major leaders.

In the Christian Connexion stream, which in 1931 merged with Congregationalists, you had James O'Kelly, Elias Smith, Abner Jones, and Barton Stone.

In the stream that became the Disciples of Christ, Churches of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches you had Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone.

Barton Stone appears twice. This is because one part of the group he led merged with A. Campbell's group, and the other part refused to do so. The stream that originated with J. O'Kelly, E. Smith and A. Jones remained separate until it merged with Congregationalists in 1931.

The reason why the Restoration Movement gets called "Campbellism" is because the biggest troublemakers were people in his stream. Often, they took and take some of his ideas and go farther than he wanted. There were other portions of the Restoration that were had different priorities than causing trouble for other church groups.

 

[Eric B]

OK.
That is still kind of "related" (different streams), and that's what I meant. (And when I hear "Restoration", I automatically think "Campbellism", though I realize it is a bit bigger than just that movement).

 

[djadzin]

Yes, We do believe in the Trinity

Yes, we do believe in the Trinity. It is hard to understand how God can be God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But it is easy for me to believe John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." It is equally easy for me to believe that the Holy Ghost dwells within me as in Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

I long ago gave up trying to understand what I could not and chose simply to believe. The nature of God is hard for me to understand, but I can share with you a document that my pastor prepared if it helps any one else in their attempts to understand the nature of God and the Trinity. It is 30 pages long, but you may like it.

http://www.gracebaptistroseville.com/index_files/The_Nature_and_Attributes_of_God.pdf

Dale

 

[paganini_4184]

Watch your mouth!

If St. Nicolas were here, he'd punch you in the face, just as he did to the heretic Arius in 325AD!

This shouldn't even be up for discussion...You'll be banned before the end of the day...

In XC
-

Curb your tongue your in violation of the commands of God!


1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

will love — Greek, “wishes to love.” He who loves life (present and eternal), and desires to continue to do so, not involving himself in troubles which will make this life a burden, and cause him to forfeit eternal life. Peter confirms his exhortation, 1Pe_3:9, by Psa_34:12-16.
refrain — curb, literally, “cause to cease”; implying that our natural inclination and custom is to speak evil. “Men commonly think that they would be exposed to the wantonness of their enemies if they did not strenuously vindicate their rights. But the Spirit promises a life of blessedness to none but those who are gentle and patient of evils” [Calvin].
evil ... guile — First he warns against sins of the tongue, evil-speaking, and deceitful, double-tongued speaking; next, against acts of injury to one’s neighbor.

Paganini

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Curb your tongue your in violation of the commands of God!


1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

will love — Greek, “wishes to love.” He who loves life (present and eternal), and desires to continue to do so, not involving himself in troubles which will make this life a burden, and cause him to forfeit eternal life. Peter confirms his exhortation, 1Pe_3:9, by Psa_34:12-16.
refrain — curb, literally, “cause to cease”; implying that our natural inclination and custom is to speak evil. “Men commonly think that they would be exposed to the wantonness of their enemies if they did not strenuously vindicate their rights. But the Spirit promises a life of blessedness to none but those who are gentle and patient of evils” [Calvin].
evil ... guile — First he warns against sins of the tongue, evil-speaking, and deceitful, double-tongued speaking; next, against acts of injury to one’s neighbor.

Paganini

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
...now THAT'S Funny...another Pope wanna be on the BB...

In XC
-

 

[Darron Steele]

Well, Agnus Dei, you did speak approvingly of violence.

As you are Orthodox, I assume you believe in the Bible's infallibility. I cannot see any biblical justification for
a) physical violence over a religious disagreement, or
b) speaking approvingly thereof.

The reproof was overdone, but a reproof was due. The fact you think it is funny does not speak well of you.

 

[Jedi Knight]

John 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
Jesus of the New Testement is Jehovah of the Old Testement. Notice the consequences if you don't accept it!