David was a calvinist,believed in the everlasting covenant,and did not believe in free will.
Good stuff.
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Do Calvinists believe anyone has free will?
- Thread starter Robert Snow
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Good stuff.
Many are "calvinists" who never heard of ,or read calvin,
Calvinism is a term with a life of its own.
That David freely sacrificed to God, or sought his precepts while walking at liberty has nothing to do with free will the false philosophical idea.
David was a calvinist,believed in the everlasting covenant,and did not believe in free will.
He may not have believed in free will, but he sure did exercise it! Does Bathsheba ring a bell? :laugh:
We really need to come together on an acceptable definition of free will.
If free will means the ability to do what you most want to do then everyone has it- angels and men, saved and lost.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Hey Amy,
What do you say "free will" is? I say it is the ability and opportunity to make choices from a given "sample space" of available choices, parameters made by the creator. I can choose to do whatever I want or don't want to do.
I think it's pretty clear that David did what he most wanted to do with Bathsheba and her husband. He followed the flesh 100%.
That might have more to do with lust,and unmortified flesh....not to mention Bathsheba exposing herself publically. He made provision for the flesh...
where your mind is.....your body will soon follow.
I'm sorry. I don't know what unmortified flesh is.
But the point is that David used his free will to make a very bad choice. He could have chosen to go to war like he as king was supposed to. But he shirked off his responsibility and stayed around the house all alone while his men were out fighting, exposing himself to all kinds of temptations. His decision was deliberate and thought out.
Even at this time, he was still God's chosen king and a man after God's own heart.
Well, if you’re a man interested in logic and defining free will; can you explain how determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive in the matter of volition?
According to “Determinism” for God to be sovereign He must have predestined everything, true?
1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen
So, exactly how does the Calvinist define ability/volition and maintain a logical definition of his determinist' view?
I think we have an accord.
You can choose to do whatever you want to do and choose not to do whatever you don't want to do.
Right.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Absolutely.
That syllogism does not negate free will.
All Christians believe that God has determined some things to happen and many of those have to do with men.
No one has a problem with the idea that those things will not "violate" man's free will.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Well, that is not quite what I said, but I dont object profusely.
I said, I can choose to do whatever I want to or even choose to do something I don't want to do.
We agree? Woohoo! :wavey:
God gives man the ability to make choices but those choices are God's choice to give, making Him sovereign in all our choices.
Did that make sense? :laugh:
(I tried)
I agree that you can choose to do what you don't want to do so long as you understand that the reason you do not choose what you want to do is because you are choosing to do something else that you want to do MORE.
You may want to eat a piece of cake that is there before you.
If you do not eat it it is because you want to not eat it for some other reason.
Perhaps you want to lose weight more than you want to eat the cake.
You are still choosing what you want more.
You may be able to sin and bring your flesh much pleasure. It is what you want to do. If you do not do it it is because you want to NOT do it more than you want to do it. the reason may be you do not want to deal with the guilt and your desire to avoid the guilt outweighs your desire for the sin.
But you are still choosing what you most want to do.
Prove it...logically...I've shown a truth concerning the necessary determinist view and asked how that is not mutually exclusive with free will, you have given me nothing of value to support your argument.
Your begging the question there Luke, sorry, but your answer proves nothing but you know how to use a fallacy instead of answering it.
First off, I appreciate the use of logic. It is a breath of fresh air for me here on BB.
And I see your point but please allow me to demonstrate that your syllogism does not even deal with, much less negate free will.
It does not even mention it.
You are begging the question when you contend that determinism being that which will cause some things to infallibly come to pass means that free will cannot be involved. That is not at all demonstrated in your syllogism. You just presuppose that since determinism means that what is determined MUST come to pass then free will cannot be involved.
WHY NOT?
I'm not begging any question, I've stated a definition of determism and asked if it is not mutually exclusive with volition. So, first do you agree with this or not?:
If you do then does this not clarify the determinist' view?:
All you have to do is either tell me why it doesn't represent your view or explain in a logical mannner how this view is not mutually exclusive with creaturely volition?
Does (A) and (B) not go together? If not, why not?
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I think your syllogism is sound.
The problem is that it does not at all address volition.
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