Featured Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?

BrotherBenjamin,

This is from a post a few days ago in this thread that I never received a reply from. I have bolded in black my questions to you and hope you will answer them. Please reply if you have answers. I have answered all your questions and also all the questions of Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire.

 

Thats not how I see it.

 

Ben's philosophy runs along the same lines as William Lane Craig. And that's not a good thing.

 

Brother Benjamin,

FYI- The person who you addressed this to (Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire) adheres to the five points of the doctrines of grace, but rejects the predestination of all things.

 

Brother Rippon,

You have correctly stated, it is "Ben's philosophy", not the theology of the Bible. Let us see if the answers the questions I posted for him in post # 100 and #101.

 

All right....before this gets more convoluted, do you Absoluters attribute “all our works” to God? Yes or No.

 

Brother Steve,

I can only speak for the "absoluters" I know and none of them believes God works wickedness. I also doubt anyone on this thread would take such a position that God does such. It is already in the heart of men because of Adam. Unfortunately, absoluters are often maligned and falsely represented as believing/teaching such heresy. I challenge you to find one quote from any main stream theologian who believes God predestinated all things and also believes God is the author of sin or any confession of faith that says such. You won't find any, but you will find many quotes online from the opposition who falsely accuse us of believing such things. Most of them are also Arminian. It is all ad hominem attacks.

Now, I have answered all your questions, I have a few for you. Who is the first cause of all causes if it is not God? Are there effects without causes and if so name some? And finally, how can God according to scripture, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), without predestinating the "all things" he is working after His will? Does anything happen that isn't worked after His will? I have answered all of your questions in each and everyone of my post, thus if you could please answer mine?

Brother Joe

 

So to clarify, Acts of faith and obedience in a regenerate elect are wholly caused by divine predestination and not in any way or to any degree related to the believer’s own will or anything in his/her regenerated and thus changed nature? Have I summerized your position properly?

 

Brother,

I'll let the scripture answer that.

There are two natures after regeneration. The flesh, of this Paul says after he has been regenerated, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18) and "7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7). Scripture is clear the flesh is not changed after regeneration, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (Romans 6:63).

The fruit of the Spirit is produced by the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. Spirit in us). Jesus laid down some simple principles, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5) Regarding the will to do good, scripture is also explicit on this "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) also, "“Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)

“The body is dead because of sin.”(Romans 8:10) And so, the body is utterly unable to do works of righteousness either before or after regeneration - “that which is of the flesh is flesh,” -

While Jonah was in the belly of the whale, he uttered that glorious statement, "Salvation is of the Lord." And to that I submit that I know no of no other salvation. Salvation, whether it be in time or eternity, is of the Lord. There can be no exceptions. That we are saved in many ways in time, I question not, and vigorously proclaim, but no salvation is of bare creature effort. Though there are many secondary agencies involved in our being saved here in time, the ultimate source of that salvation is grace. The Apostle asked the Galatians after regeneration, “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3) To my mind he is contending against the very idea now being advanced by todays Conditionalists that our salvation in time depends on ourselves.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Earth, Wind, & Fire, you never answered my question, and maybe you did not see it, mon ami.


Could Christ have NOT been crucified?

 

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire,

You never answered my questions that I have posted several times to you. It is frustrating between you and Brother Benjamin not answering my questions, yet if one goes back through this thread they will see I have answered all questions posed to me from both you and brother Benjamin. These questions and answers seem to be only going one way (i.e. me answering Benjamin and your questions). I will post my questions once more, but do not wish to be contentious, thus if wish to not answer my questions that is your prerogative.

Who is the first cause of all causes if it is not God? Are there effects without causes and if so name some? And finally, how can God according to scripture, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), without predestinating the "all things" He is working after His will? Does anything happen that isn't worked after His will? When the Lord told us to pray "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.", was He instructing us to pray for something that is not answered?


Brother Joe

 

Good post brother! :thumbsup:

 

Let me put it to you this way, by using this analogy.

You have a brand new car, with zero miles. Unless you start it, it will not run. God regenerates us and by doing so, we exercise faith repentance, both God given gifts. Unless God does this, we can not do this, being fallen creatures from the fall of Adam.

Here is something from the LBCoF of 1689:

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.

It takes God to overcome man's fall, that fall that happened in Adam. God puts a will and do in their life in accordance to His good will and pleasure.

 

The works in sinners are their own. The good works in the regenerate are due to God's effacacious work wrought upon their heart.

 

Thank you. God uses evil spirits, as seen by Saul's account, yet He is without sin in doing so.

No whale, no Jonah preaching to Ninevah. This is a picture of Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

No raising Pharaoh up to his place of power, no Jew leaves Egypt to serve God. Where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son."[Matt. 2:15]

No Rahab lying, she dies in Jericho. She is part of Jesus' ancestry.

 

Brother, I tire of false your accusation that your original question has not been answered. It has been answered thoroughly as to it ROOTS! Unfortunately your only defense to my answering your question was to fall back on logically making God the author of sin- to no surprise. Now you merely want me chase your rabbit trails - which I really don't have the time or motivation to do, especially in this forum. For the readers I will demonstrate once more that I have answered your "question" to put a rest to false accusation tactic of debating.

As for your follow "questions", again, I don't have the time to take your systematic theology all the way back to creation to demonstrate free will and I certainly don't have time straighten you out on all the question begging and false dilemmas you presented in ORDER TO SUPPORT YOUR DOCTRINES OF HARD DETERMINISM WHICH ENDED IN ATTRIBUTING SIN TO A HOLY GOD... but I will post a previous written explanation below of free will/human volition from creation THAT if you use yer noodle you should be able to see why I refer to your question begging and false dilemmas in your follow up rabbit trail questions.

 

An Argument for the Non-Determinist Position of Maintaining the Nature of Human Free Will from the Beginning of the World.

In support of their systematic theology the Calvinist/Determinist insists that the nature of man, “human volition” is predestined to choose a certain way and this is controlled by “cause and effect” rather than by “influence and response” concerning his ability to consciously choose of his own free will to receive the gift of life. Any claim by the Non-Calvinist that denies a fore-determined human choice is commonly said by the Calvinist to be too narrow a definition of freedom. Yet it is they who insist human freedoms are limited and contend that otherwise the idea of free choice to receive God’s gift puts the consequences for sin in the hands of man and voids God of His Sovereignty. But, no one is denying God’s judgment in the matter of human response to His influences, further we contend that the offer is genuinely made and without the free will to choose to respond there is no truth in this judgment.

The Calvinist are making two mistakes concerning free will: (1) they are attempting to widen the definition of “free choice/volition” in a way that amounts to a freedom apart from judgment and the consequences of one’s own choice. (2) They are implying there must be an irresistible cause attached to all human freedom which narrows rather than widens the definition of “creaturely volition” and this view neglects the agent’s responsibility for his own choices while placing the responsibility for his choice on this irresistible cause.

The typical Calvinists’ argument amounts to a strawman of the Non-Calvinist definition of human volition by assuming we believe this freedom is so free as to be able to create our own world. We never claim to be free from God’s influences or providential care but only free in the way we respond, able to make our own conscious choice. I would argue that we are/were designed from creation to be able to freely respond and nothing (these attributes of sense, intellect, ability to reason, etc.) has been taken away here since creation. God didn’t take free will away from Adam and Eve in the fall, He put in front of them another choice, a second chance, a tree of life to which in love He provided the Way for all His creatures should they choose to repent and now freely put forth his hand and eat of that tree.



(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:



There cannot be two gods, Only One is Perfect to judge good. Man of his own free will acquired the added attribute of judgment between good and evil and must now within this self-acquired new nature, which he alone is responsible for gaining, must turn from these desires and bow to His Creator as Lord and King. The Calvinists commonly claim the fall took away the free will Adam and Eve had, but man’s free will was not recreated. Human nature has the same ability to choose and now he must equally repent and put forth his hand freely as per his divinely designed nature and also take of the tree of life.


On the contrary to the idea that we were “recreated” to lose our attributes of reason because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, something was added to our nature – knowledge of good and evil, and therein our troubles began. “We were responsible” then and “we are responsible” now to repent of those desires to be as God which began with Adam and Eve. God is the Ultimate Judge of good and evil, He is the King over all and will rightly judge our free choice to bow our knees in love of the truth that He is God upon which His Mercy comes through grace or I dare to say adversely if the creature sticks to the pride of life and in complaint makes an excuse while claiming that he had no choice by which he demonstrates he is unthankful for the lesser status of being and is unrepentant with lack of humility. God does not force this love on His creatures, He never did.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

(Rom 1:24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



Also, contrary to what we are often accused of, we do not dispute that God is Sovereign in the world, personally I am thankful for my miraculous divinely designed nature and I freely bow to His Kingship as my loving King. Yes, “God is Sovereign” but I distinguish between divine Sovereign control being deterministic and that of His maintaining Providential Sovereign control over the world we live in. God is Providentially Sovereign, long-sufferingly so, in which He influences “us” (divinely designed creatures with human attributes and freedoms) and judges our response to the truths we are given. In the opposition’s insistence of holding to a definition of Deterministic Sovereignty they neglect: (1) Without human volition there simply is no truth in judgment and any theology of an Only Good God crashes without maintaining this truth. (2) That our view simply provides a deeper and more precise meaning to the definition of human volition and divine sovereignty which allows for the complex natures and attributes of man and God to be maintained in truth.

Man would naturally desire all power in heaven and earth and to be as God before accepting the freedoms given him as totally free. Nothing is new about these rebellious objections to the way man was made and that he would complain about being less than free if not a god and judge of all things for himself. The Devil suggested these ideas of equality with God and to settle for nothing less as a definition of freedom and rebellion began. Man’s prideful dissatisfaction to be a lessor being was expected, prepared for and is noted in God’s word:

(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(Rom 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The Calvinist commonly declare we are totally deprived from the ability to freely choose and claim any opposition to this deterministic view deprives God of His Sovereignty. As if the free will nature of man from the beginning of the creation of the world is not clearly seen or understood. The Calvinist makes excuses by asserting God’s creatures do not genuinely have the volition to answer His call of repentance and to accept His free gift of eternal life. How does this not equally compare to the disobedience of Adam and Eve? Rather such a doctrine appears as an ungrateful complaint against the nature in which man was divinely designed in. It appears as a statement made in pride that they did not choose to take God’s gift of their own free will? The unbelievers will gladly agree to this logic of the Determinist which necessarily concludes that not only good has come from God because He supposedly created some/most men only to be evil and has fore-determined that they would never have the ability to hear or respond to His offer of salvation. Can true human freedom only be defined in having the ability to create one’s own world and thereby save oneself, because that is what I hear the Calvinist saying?

True, there is no human ability to create his own world to rule over and be king of. We are not so free as to be our own judge between good and evil or to be void of the consequences from our Creator who is the Only True King, our God. We do not live in our own vacuum as our own God and Creator, this is true, but none of this redefines human freedom according because of this false premise that human volition is unacceptable as being truly free unless it is first redefined as having the characteristics of “divine” freedom to create a world and the influences in it. The entire Calvinist’s argument over divine sovereignty and true “human” freedom/volition is dependent upon that assessment.

Whosoever you are be thankful for the miraculous nature that God gave all men from the beginning for He is a God of Love and in mercy and grace from the foundation of the world He sacrifice His Only Son in the greatest of love to provide the way for all His creatures to have eternal life through Him if they will only use their God given human freedom to humbly accept Him in faith as their Lord and God. If you confess with “your” mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in “your” heart that God raised has raised Him from the dead “you’ will be saved and “you” shall know the truth and the truth shall set “you” free indeed. God gives a genuine appeal for all men to come to Him and “you” have the freedom to do so! Amen

 

The Calvinist typically insists that the human being does not have the ability to express a choice without a cause to do so, therefore he insists we are not free to make the choice. But, they are again making mistakes here: (1) they are assuming the Non-Calvinist denies the work (“influences”) of God in the world (2) they are assuming the cause is irresistible, a determination rather than an influence (3) they are assuming our definition of freedom is being compared to the divine freedom to have the ability create the world in which we live and that we respond apart from influences on our human nature which was divinely designed to have a God given mind of our own to reason with.


I am late for my workout now and have no more time for this in the near future so you can have the last word.

Thank you for the discussion. God bless.

 

Ben, if you would leave out your dishonest remarks which are at the heart of your arguments, there would be a better exchange of ideas.

BrotherJoseph has never attributed sin to the Holy God.

 

The sooner people possess no free will the sooner they realize what the fall did to all mankind.