Good....at least a straight answer.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
- Start date
- Status
Good....at least a straight answer.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steve,
I agree with what Brother Sovereign has said that, "the works of a sinner are their own". Enjoyed the discussion.
Last edited by a moderator:
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Benjamin,
I will let your word be the last word as I feel both sides have pretty much represented their position (especially me with my long winded posts lol) and I really have no more to add unless any further questions arise. Thank you too for the discussion.
Could Christ have NOT been crucified?
Inspector Javert
Active Member
.............
Last edited by a moderator:
I am quite familiar with Richard Coords' views and and would take them any day over your aversion to and denial of Divine Foreknowledge in order to hold to your views.
...But, we've been through this in detail before and your Open Theistic view, which you suppose is the ONLY way man's free will/human volition can be maintained, was nailed to wall along with your fallacious maneuvers that deny God's Omniscient Nature and the lack of integrity you showed in that debate. But, as IJ pointed out you've never stopped squawking the same ole garbage. I told you then we were done and have little doubt that you just as incorrigible now, so sorry but I have no intention of wasting any more of my time with you concerning heretical Open Theism.
As far as I'm concerned your view and the Calvinist's view which denies His Omnibenevolence (seen in this very thread) are equally deplorable because they both deny the attributes of God in order to stick to systematic theology.
Well it is true, your dismissive dodge of specifics is a waste of time, as are your efforts to tar me with discredited labels.
1) Do I deny God declares the end from the beginning? Nope.
2) Ben, your view is just as open as mine! Did God cause or predestine our each and every sin, or do we by our autonomous choices bear responsibility? If our sins are not predestined, then that part of the future is open. Thus you are just as "guilty" as the Calvinists who deny God is the author of sin of lacking integrity.
3) You have no answers, and so you hurl insults. And then you charge me with "fallacious maneuvers."
4) Omnibenevolence is a mistaken doctrine. God has the right, as the potter over the clay, to smush us or not. He is always just, but from our point of view, say drowning in a tsunami, His actions can be adverse to our expectations.
Did you even bother to read post # 72?
Allow me to ask the Absoluter Predestination a question... "Do you believe that Elect people can make voluntary choices to obey or not to obey?"
:thumbsup::thumbs:
What did the Romanist say in chapter 7? Yes we sin. When we sin, we transgress God's Law(s). But what happens to the believer when they sin? They repent of it, bend their will to His.
When we sin, yes, we sin voluntarily. But we contend with our flesh, and strive to be more Christlike every day. But we will battle sin until we die.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.[Rom. 7:14-25]
Last edited by a moderator:
SG....I'm just trying to sort things out in my own mind....that is the reason for my incessant questions....please bear with me
you know of course that there are those who believe that we do not sin voluntarily....just saying.
No problem. God has decreed to save the elect by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. His will 'pushed' this to its fruition. God ordained the fall of Satan and consequently, the fall of mankind. God decreed the death, burial and resurrection as we can read the details in His word and how it came to its fruition. Decree means An edict or law. I found this on www.wikidiff.com.
God ordained the fall, but we don't know how He to prearrange unalterably, to decree, to admit into the ministry of the Christian church, to authorize as a rabbi, to predestine(also from same site). We do not know how He ordained the fall of Satan. I personally believe that He ordained the fall of mankind via the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, sadly this is true.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steve,
I do not know anybody who believes we don't sin voluntarily who believes in the absolute predestination of all things. Who believes this?
Here are some quotes proving Primitive Baptist Absoluters believe the opposite. Please notice the language.
The first quote is from none other than Elder Gilbert Beebe (many might call him jokingly the "father" of the Primitive absoluters). In an article he wrote ironically title Absolute Predestination of All Things-
" Although Christ was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God; those who were charged with his crucifixion were guilty of doing it with wicked hands. They acted as voluntarily and maliciously as though no such determinate counsel had determined beforehand what they should do."
"Every intelligent being knows that in committing sin, he acts voluntarily, and follows the impulse of his own depraved nature, and every one who is born of God and taught by his Spirit, knows that sin is the opposite of holiness; that God is holy, and that sin is of the devil, and not of God"
Link to article http://www.asweetsavor.info/egb/absolute4.php
From another one of Beebe's writings titled "The Will of God"
"Man is by no means released from his accountability, nor is he propelled like a machine in his action; he acts voluntarily in his course of wickedness, without any fear of God before his eyes, and is therefore guilty in the eyes of the law and justice for his wickedness, and he is held accountable for his conduct, and will be punished for his sins, according to the testimony of the Scriptures. Many have failed to perceive how God can govern the world, and control all events, without influencing men to sin, or being the author of sin. By the terms “author of sin,” we suppose they mean the fountain or source of sin. If this be their meaning, nothing can be more remote from the truth. For God is perfectly holy in his nature, and in all his administrations. "
Same article,
"Joseph’s brethren acted voluntarily in meditating his murder, and in selling him to the Ishmaelites to be carried down to Egypt; and they were held accountable for their wickedness, as much so as though God had had no purpose in the matter; yet the event shows, and the word of God declares, that God had a purpose in it all; and we conclude that God had as much purpose in Joseph’s going into Egypt, as though his brethren had had no agency in the matter. How these things can be, may be a mystery to men, but all is plain with God"
"A brother has used the figure of the good tree and the evil tree, which were created with all their subsequent developments in them, and under the unavoidable necessity of bring*ing forth the fruit which was according to their nature. This is unquestionably true in regard to trees, but trees have no volition; they are passive, and to them attaches neither blame nor approval. Men are accountable beings, and act voluntarily in sinning, and are subjects of condemnation and wrath. The figure of trees is applied to men, we admit, but not in reference to their original creation. Christ says, “First make the tree good, and his fruit shall be good,” &c. But his application of the figure contemplates man as a fallen sinner, already condemned; he is like a corrupt tree; in his present state he can bring forth corrupt fruit, but he cannot bring forth good fruit. But God is able to purge the tree, and make it bring forth good fruit. All men are by nature, that is, in their fallen nature, evil trees, and polluted fountains, so that until God makes good the tree, and cleanses the fountain, no pure or holy productions can be developed."
Link to article http://www.asweetsavor.info/egb/willofgod.php
One final quote from an absoluter newspaper titled Signs of The Times published from the early 1800's to the present,
"Will any one deny that the crucifixion was determined by the hand and counsel of God! Peter said they had killed the Prince of peace. Was their act not embraced in predestination? It was a cruel murder, and if God did it or coerced men to do it, he is the author of sin. Therefore the assumption that he predestinates only what be does by his own hand, is illogical, unscriptural and untrue. When the Lord by the mouth of the prophet Isaiah declared, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him,” he did not see fit to tell the people then how he would do it, but we know now that it was by the hand of wicked men. These men acted voluntarily, yet their act was predestinated."
Link to article http://www.asweetsavor.info/signs/tharp3.php
Last edited by a moderator:
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
I agree with the latter. Regarding Satan, he was created evil and thus is the first sinful being.
What do the Scriptures say about the devil?
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
Taking that thought that scripture says Satan, "was a murderer from the beginning" and "the devil sinneth from the beginning" and theory into consideration, look at the book of Ezekiel and see what it has to say about him.
" Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15)
I want to focus on the sentence above from Ezekiel 28:15. The first half of the verse says “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created...” The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”. And the verse also makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.
When we take the two verses from John and 1 John and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner. He has had nothing to do with truth from the beginning because there is no truth in him. He was a sinner from the beginning and he was created that way by God to fulfill God’s purpose.
Also, the fact alone that God put Satan in the garden to begin with is in my opinion proof that it was God's will that the fall occur. Why else would he have placed him there?
God bless,
Brother Joe
Last edited by a moderator:
What do the Scriptures say about the devil? Matthew Henry's commentary of Ez. 28: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/ezekiel/28.html
I believe it was referring to the King of Tyre just like Lucifer is Nebachudnezzar in Isa. 14.
Satan 'murdered' Adam and Eve in the Garden by deceiving them, causing them to die spiritually that very moment, and die naturally later.
'From the beginning', is this referring to the creation of the earth of from his beginning? I truly do not know. In regards to the Ezekiel reference, that is referring to King of Tyre and not Satan. Satan was never Lucifer and vice versa(Isa. 14)
Personally, I believe those accounts attributed to Satan are false. I mean Isa. 14 & Ed. 28.
Last edited by a moderator:
Six Hour Warning
Sometime after 1130pm Pacific Time, this thread will be closed.
Sometime after 1130pm Pacific Time, this thread will be closed.
Why are you acting so hasty, mon ami? This has been a rather civil and fruitful thread in my opinion.
- Status