Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?

[BrotherJoseph]

OK then I have a question; did God “wrought” all of David’s works when he had the affair with Bathsheba and subsequently arranged for her husband’s death?

Hi Brother Steve,

I have already shown how God predestinated the most wicked act of evil men this world has ever seen in the crucifixion of Christ to bring out His righteous purposes of accomplishing mercy, grace, reconciliation, redemption, and the greatest act of love history ever will know. If He can accomplish His purposes in the most evil act, why can't he accomplish it with lessor acts of evil such as David and Bathsheba's sin? Don't get me wrong, what David did was sinful and God punished him for it, but did God have a purpose in uniting David and Bathsheba? Indeed, he did.

Scripture is the best commentary for Scripture and we see in the book of Matthew the reason that all of this HAD to come to pass exactly as it did. In the lineage of Christ we see Bath-sheba mentioned (as she who had been the wife of Uriah) in chapter 1 verse 6 for bringing forth Solomon who is in the lineage of Christ. IF things had not played out the way they did, or this incident had not have happened EXACTLY as it happened there would have been a break in the lineage of Christ. Was David in sin? Absolutely! and he confessed that sin before God. Was God in control of every thought and every action? Absolutely! and not only in control of it but He is the one who orchestrated every single moment of the incident to occur exactly as it happened.

Did not David say, "My times are in thy hand"? (Psalm 31:15). Shall we then say he only meant the good times and not the evil? May the Lord deliver us from such foolishness! Moreover, Solomon himself said, "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven (Ecclesiastes 3.1ff)." With such positive declarations from the Word of God, how dare any son of Adam question God had a wise purpose in all the events of the life

Looking again in the book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. The word for “and he moved” means to “prick” or better yet to “stimulate, seduce, entice, persuade and provoke”. So we see the Lord “causing” David to say “Go, number Israel and Judah” because of his anger towards Israel. Then King David tells his captain of the host Joab to go out and number all the people. Then after it is all said and done, David is convicted or pricked in the heart for numbering the people and says unto the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (24:10)” David confessed to sinning greatly before the Lord. Here it was Jehovah who moved (directed his steps) David to sin in numbering the people and then we see David confessing his sin to Jehovah for numbering the people. (To me, this is a perfect invalidation to the accusation that if it is God that causes one to sin then that person can just turn around and blame their sin on God. David was moved to do this action and yet it is evident from these verses that he was convicted of that sin and confessed that sin before the Lord.) Now, I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” That is absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

Though there are many Scriptures concerning the wise government of God, one shall be sufficient at this time. "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isaiah 46.9, 10)."


I hope you enjoy what is left of the holiday weekend.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother, it also took me quite some time to bring you back to your original question (argument) and to demonstrate that I in fact did answer it, both in detail AND in short sentences. Frankly, I am a bit perplexed that while you talk about how a debate should go forward you would continue to ignore that I have taken your leading argument back to its roots and that you will use this as a point of contention in the debate rather than acknowledging the subject matter which directly deals with your reasoning.

I'm beginning to believe you must simply not be getting the answer you prefer and are avoiding going into depth about the argument you have started with.


I am not interested in spending the time to chase after new rabbit trails of the scriptural food fight proof-texting sort which I merely see not as ethical debate protocol but as smokescreen tactics when you can't seem to/or refuse follow the root argument which you present and I fully addressed already.

As per the bulk of your proof-texting (which interpretations are seemingly designed to support your idea that God can cause evil yet not be responsible for it) I answered that in general, I referred to it as the "post below" but, again, am not interested in spending the time chasing down every proof-texting rabbit trail you can come up with while you fail to acknowledge the root argument about Deterministic doctrines and the logical consequences of such doctrines leading to God being the author of sin. Seriously, what will prove to me with your proof-texting? - That God is the first cause of evil but it not responsible for it??? It may not the way you like or are used to "debating" BUT all these issues have been addressed and I have no intention of being baited to go down new rabbit trails before the acknowledgment of my counter argument which shows your opening premises to fall short of truth.

Talk about being frustrated with Rippon (The King of avoiding issues through focus on rhetoric and Ad Hominem)?! You might want to note how much detail I went into to address your opening argument:

Brother Benjamin,

First, I am sorry if you feel I falsely accused you of evading my question. I said this because I did not see in your replies to me an answer as to what you believe is the first cause of all things. You said man is the cause of sin, but I doubt you would argue he is the first cause of all things. I will leave you with some final thoughts. Feel free to reply if you feel so inclined, if not so be it.

If God did not purpose that sin should be in the world, can you give an intelligent reason why He arranged His creation so it would come into the world? Is not the fact that God arranged His creation and has conducted His government in such way as to admit sin into the world evidenced that He intended that it should be in the world? It is certain He could have had it otherwise if it had been His pleasure to have done so, but in some way which He has not been pleased to explain to us He has see fit to have things as they are.

Also, no man makes a machine intentionally knowing that it will be flawed, but that is what you are asserting God did with His creation if He created man knowing they would sin, but that it was not His will that they sin. If no man would do such a thing with his creation, why on the earth would it be logical that God would do such a thing?

Further, If it wasn't God's will for sin to enter in the world why did he ever put Satan in the garden? Why else was Satan in the garden?

Also, interesting to note, is the fact that God allowed the devil to deceive our mother Eve, and has allowed him to go on and will allow him for a "little season" to deceive the nations as it is written in Revelation 20:7-8, "7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" then destroy him "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" (Hebrews 2:14), when he could have destroyed him before he deceived any one, had it been his will to do so, proves to any sane mind that He made him for that purpose, and will continue to use him as He sees fit until HIs set time to destroy him is come.

Why, O why, must he be loosed "for a little season to deceive the nations," if it is not God's will and purpose for him to do so?

Brother Benjamin, if as you believe, God did not "want" sin to enter the world, and the devil did, and God did not "want" any man to be a sinner, and the devil wanted all men to become sinners; and God did now "want" sin mixed in any of the affairs of men in this world, and the devil wanted it mixed in all the affairs of men in this world; and God did now "want" any man to ever die, and the devil wanted all men to die, does it not look like the devil has out-generaled God in all things up to now and proved himself to be more wise and powerful than God?

And if God should get a few of us out of the devil's hands and get us into heaven, what assurance have we that we will not again become sinners and fall from our standing there and be finally lost? If it happened in the garden, why could it not happen there too? However these things cannot be because God created the devil and uses him as his own instrument and he can only work as god wills. "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4). The devil is nothing more than a pawn that will be destroyed by God in the end.

Scripture tells us "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent (Job 26:13). But that same Bible also tells us, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;..." (Isaiah 27:1). What do you make of these scriptures?

Finally, as I explained before, God willing that sin exist does not make him the "author of it". An act alone does not constitute sin, but the righteousness or unrighteousness of an act is determined by the motive prompting the act. If a physician causes his fellowman great pain and suffering and even death by the amputation of a limb in an effort to do him good, no one would condemn that physician of wrong doing; but if he causes him pain or suffering or death by amputating a limb in malice and with an intention of doing him harm, that physician is guilty of wrong. God has a holy and sinless motive in all that He does, in all that He causes to be done and in all that He allows to be done, and intends that each thing done shall redound to the praise of that holy and exalted purpose, and so it matters not how sinful and vile the act may be when performed by man with a corrupt motive, God’s motive and purpose in the act being most holy He is not and can not be chargeable with sin; and yet the very same act which He has appointed to issue in His praise and redound to His glory is a vile transgression on the part of the one who performed it, as his design was evil.

God willed that sin enter into the world so that He could demonstrate the highest act of love history has every seen in Christ's sacrifice, redemption of His people, grace, unconditional love, mercy. Which one of these things could have existed if sin had not entered into the world? His children know or have experienced all these things none of these things were possible to experience before the fall or if the fall had never occurred.

God bless and thank you for the discussion on these matters brother Benjamin. I hope you are blessed at your service tomorrow.


Brother Joe

 

[Benjamin]

Hi Brother Steve,

I have already shown how God predestinated the most wicked act of evil men this world has ever seen in the crucifixion of Christ to bring out His righteous purposes of accomplishing mercy, grace, reconciliation, redemption, and the greatest act of love history ever will know.

You are simply reading your Deterministic view into the crucifixion while unwittingly attributing evil to God..

Dave Hunt writes: “God foreknew the evil in everyone’s hearts and the actions they would take and that He used them to fulfill His preordained purpose. It does not say that God decreed or caused the evil intentions and actions of Pilate and Christ’s crucifiers.” (Debating Calvinism, p.52, emphasis mine)

One member of The Society of Evangelical Arminians explains: “God predestined (pre-determined) that the crucifixion would occur. All God had to do to bring this about was to give Jesus over to the power of those who already wanted to kill Him at the proper time. God did not have to control their wills to hate Christ or want Him dead in order to do that. God simply had to give these people the power and opportunity to carry out their intentions, intentions that God in no way caused or decreed. Calvinists have to read quite a bit into this passage to get what they want out of it.” (SEA)

Another member of The Society of Evangelical Arminians explains: “In the crucifixion, God foreknew what the evil people would do, allowed them to do it, and decreed the outcome that Jesus would be crucified by these evil men. In the case of Jesus being crucified, was that event an ‘evil’ event? Yes. Did God allow it? Yes. Did God foreknow it would occur? Yes. Did God ‘decree’ it or ‘predestine’ it to occur? Yes, because sometimes God uses foreknown and evil choices to accomplish some good (the best example being the crucifixion, but the Story of Joseph is a good example of this as well, as is God’s using the evil Assyrians to discipline his own people Israel).” (SEA)

God does not create evil people and/or cause them to carry out Calvary or other evil events; God used evil and rebellious people to carry out Calvary.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are simply reading your Deterministic view into the crucifixion while unwittingly attributing evil to God..

Brother Benjamin, no I am not "reading" deterministic view into the crucifixion, it is explicitly stated in several texts. The word "determined" and "determinate" are used in all three of the verses below in relation to the crucifixion of Christ, are they not?

"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) \

Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28)

And finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Benjamin]

Brother Benjamin, no I am not "reading" deterministic view into the crucifixion, it is explicitly stated in several texts. The word "determined" and "determinate" are used in all three of the verses below in relation to the crucifixion of Christ, are they not?

"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) \

Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28)

And finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).


God bless,

Brother Joe

I am not surprised considering the supposed unavoidable necessity to support your Calvinistic doctrines that you would resort to interpreting these scriptures to attribute evil to God, but I find your journey into Theological Fatalism sad to say the least.

God bless.

 

[Rippon]

Brother Benjamin, no I am not "reading" deterministic view into the crucifixion, it is explicitly stated in several texts. The word "determined" and "determinate" are used in all three of the verses below in relation to the crucifixion of Christ, are they not?

Ben is the one that has to read into these texts anything but the fact that God determined, fixed, appointed, ordained this event to take place, along with the wicked hands of men.

There is no way to "interpret" these passages of Scripture other than how they read. To try and foist an undeterministic meaning on the texts is a dishonest handling of the Bible.

"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) \

Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28)

And finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).

 

[Benjamin]

Brother Benjamin, no I am not "reading" deterministic view into the crucifixion, it is explicitly stated in several texts. The word "determined" and "determinate" are used in all three of the verses below in relation to the crucifixion of Christ, are they not?

You, and Rip, make the mistake of ignoring God’s foreknowledge when it comes to these determinations. You believe the “determinate counsel” and “foreknowledge of God” are the same thing and in doing so would have God determining the evil in men to support your claim that God determines all things (including the evil of men by which they are then judged by Him for, ) Again, God used the evil caused by men to bring about His determination of the crucifixion through His foreknowledge of how they would freely respond.

“God predetermined Calvary, but He did so contingently, and that’s where Foreknowledge comes into play. So it’s perfectly accurate for Calvinists to point out that Calvary was predetermined, but it’s not legitimate for Calvinists to ignore the fact that Scripture adds Foreknowledge into that picture.” ~ Richard Coords

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is a major theological point of difference here. Specifically, the major disagreement is related to the nature of predestination as it impacts the regenerate elect person’s acts of faith and obedience, the question of discipleship. Did God irresistibly, effectually, and causatively predestinate every act of faith and obedience? Or did God command these acts, providing multiple influences that encourage, enable, and instruct our obedience, but stopping distinctly short of a deterministic and irresistible, effectual divine causation of them?

Personally I do not agree with the Absolute Predestination of All Things group...I see it coming very close to a fatalistic belief system that makes God the author of sin.

 

[Van]

“God predetermined Calvary, but He did so contingently, and that’s where Foreknowledge comes into play. So it’s perfectly accurate for Calvinists to point out that Calvary was predetermined, but it’s not legitimate for Calvinists to ignore the fact that Scripture adds Foreknowledge into that picture.”

Foreknowledge simple means "known beforehand, the knowledge was acquired or formulated (i.e. planned) sometime in the past and is being used (i.e. plan being implemented) in the present.

Crystal ball theology is found no where in scripture.

who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit....

This could be translated as "who are chosen according to the previously formulated plan of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit...."

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There is a major theological point of difference here. Specifically, the major disagreement is related to the nature of predestination as it impacts the regenerate elect person’s acts of faith and obedience, the question of discipleship. Did God irresistibly, effectually, and causatively predestinate every act of faith and obedience? Or did God command these acts, providing multiple influences that encourage, enable, and instruct our obedience, but stopping distinctly short of a deterministic and irresistible, effectual divine causation of them?

Personally I do not agree with the Absolute Predestination of All Things group...I see it coming very close to a fatalistic belief system that makes God the author of sin.

Brother Steve,

I enjoyed the friendly debate. I knew going in to the discussion we would have differing points of view, but we kept it civil. At least we can agree on the 5 points!

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is a major theological point of difference here. Specifically, the major disagreement is related to the nature of predestination as it impacts the regenerate elect person’s acts of faith and obedience, the question of discipleship. Did God irresistibly, effectually, and causatively predestinate every act of faith and obedience? Or did God command these acts, providing multiple influences that encourage, enable, and instruct our obedience, but stopping distinctly short of a deterministic and irresistible, effectual divine causation of them?

Personally I do not agree with the Absolute Predestination of All Things group...I see it coming very close to a fatalistic belief system that makes God the author of sin.

No David and Bathsheba, no Solomon. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Joseph sold into slavery, Jacob and his lineage starve to death. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Christ turned over to wicked hands, no salvation. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Jacob lying to steal Esau's blessing, no lineage through Judah. Let that sink in before commenting.

None of these events, regardless how vile they appear to us, happened by happenstance.

 

[Benjamin]

Foreknowledge simple means "known beforehand, the knowledge was acquired or formulated (i.e. planned) sometime in the past and is being used (i.e. plan being implemented) in the present.

Crystal ball theology is found no where in scripture.

I am quite familiar with Richard Coords' views and and would take them any day over your aversion to and denial of Divine Foreknowledge in order to hold to your views.

...But, we've been through this in detail before and your Open Theistic view, which you suppose is the ONLY way man's free will/human volition can be maintained, was nailed to wall along with your fallacious maneuvers that deny God's Omniscient Nature and the lack of integrity you showed in that debate. But, as IJ pointed out you've never stopped squawking the same ole garbage. I told you then we were done and have little doubt that you just as incorrigible now, so sorry but I have no intention of wasting any more of my time with you concerning heretical Open Theism.

As far as I'm concerned your view and the Calvinist's view which denies His Omnibenevolence (seen in this very thread) are equally deplorable because they both deny the attributes of God in order to stick to systematic theology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No David and Bathsheba, no Solomon. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Joseph sold into slavery, Jacob and his lineage starve to death. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Christ turned over to wicked hands, no salvation. Let that sink in before commenting.

No Jacob lying to steal Esau's blessing, no lineage through Judah. Let that sink in before commenting.

None of these events, regardless how vile they appear to us, happened by happenstance.

So your confirming that God is the author of sin?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So your confirming that God is the author of sin?

Huh? Where did I say that? Where did I even insinuate that, mon ami?


It took David AND Bathsheba to bring about the birth of Solomon.


Go back and read those scenarios I gave you, in your bible. God can take the wickedness of men and use them to bring about His decrees. The crucifixion of Christ, the perfect example.

 

[Benjamin]

So your confirming that God is the author of sin?

They have no choice but to do so if held to logical truth. All 5 points of the TULIP are unavoidably logically dependent on and maintained through strict Determinism which result in denying human volition and thereby making God the author of sin. They may spew out compatibilism for a short time in a debate but ALWAYS revert back to Hard Determinism when their logic fails and put to the test.

More and more intellectually honest holders of the TULIP Doctrines today recognize Determinism and Human Volition as logically mutually exclusive and are turning toward the heretical views of making God the author of sin to hold to their systematic views. It is sad to say the least..

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Huh? Where did I say that? Where did I even insinuate that, mon ami?


It took David AND Bathsheba to bring about the birth of Solomon.


Go back and read those scenarios I gave you, in your bible. God can take the wickedness of men and use them to bring about His decrees. The crucifixion of Christ, the perfect example.

Why don't you admit it....in order to bring that about murder and adultery had to be committed....so was it part of Gods plan......or could it have been accomplished without sinning? We believe that God is sovereign correct....He could make rocks to step in for man in order to worship....so why would he have to orchestrate a sneaky sinful murderer synario (indeed breaking 3 of his own commandments to do so)?!? So if you believe this....that the means (in this case the bringing multiple sins in to work something out)......:laugh:

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why don't you admit it....in order to bring that about murder and adultery had to be committed....so was it part of Gods plan......or could it have been accomplished without sinning? We believe that God is sovereign correct....He could make rocks to step in for man in order to worship....so why would he have to orchestrate a sneaky sinful murderer synario (indeed breaking 3 of his own commandments to do so)?!? So if you believe this....that the means (in this case the bringing multiple sins in to work something out)......:laugh:

There is a disconnect with us in our discussion here. I never said anything you are alluding with this post.

Could Christ have NOT been crucified?

 

[Rippon]

So your confirming that God is the author of sin?

Why do you have the bad habit of attributing something to others that they haven't said or implied?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

So your confirming that God is the author of sin?

Brother Steve,

God did not put the evil in their hearts to carry out the sinful acts that BrotherSovereign mentions, it was already there from the sin of Adam. Just as nobody is asserting he had to work evil into the hearts of those who crucified Christ in order to have them do it. Predestined simply means something is predetermined. Therefore, God can predetermine an evil event without being the author of sin.

Also, just because God predestinated the wicked acts of men such as the crucifixion of Christ (this is undeniable through any unbiased reading of scripture), it is motive that determines if something is sinful, thus it would not make God the author of sin to predestinate the crucifixion and even so at the same time is evident the scripture holds those accountable for the evil of doing it. As I repeatedly used the analogy, if a physician cuts of a mans leg who needs an amputation, it is not wicked because he had a good motive in doing so, however if one cuts it out simply in malice it is evil and a sin. Those who believe God predestinated everything that comes to pass do not believe God is the author of sin, only their enemies or those who do not understand the doctrine accuse them of this. This is why the authors of the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith went out of there way to state, "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein". This doctrine is the historic doctrine of old Baptists as it is even seen clearly in the confession.

Jesus said, "34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:34-35)

The word "That" in the verse that I have highlighted in black is the Greek word, "hopós" and according to Help Word Studies means, "focusing on the necessary measures (factors, desires) that are required for the intended goal to be reached" http://biblehub.com/greek/3704.htm
In other words the word that is causative and defines purpose, therefore the reason Abel, Zacharias, the prophets, etc who God sent to the Jews were slain was the purpose" that "their blood shed come "upon" the Jews who killed them, thus by your logic scripture Jesus made God the author of sin?

Also, who is the first cause of all causes if it is not God? And finally, how can God according to scripture, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), without predestinating the "all things"? I have answered all of your questions in each and everyone of my post, thus if you could please answer mine?

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

“God predetermined Calvary, but He did so contingently, and that’s where Foreknowledge comes into play. So it’s perfectly accurate for Calvinists to point out that Calvary was predetermined, but it’s not legitimate for Calvinists to ignore the fact that Scripture adds Foreknowledge into that picture.” ~ Richard Coords

Brother Benjamin,

Let me get this straight, according the doctrine you teach, per the quote you provided above from Richard Coors, Calvary was "contingently" planned by God, in other words if "plan A" doesn't work He would go with a plan "B"? No human in their right mind would go about making a machine with the foreknowledge beforehand that the machine they created would fail after it was created, but you think God made his creation with the foreknowledge that it would not work as He wanted it to (i.e. you are asserting he didn't want men to fall, but they did), but yet He went ahead and created man the way He did despite the fact He knew darn well they wouldn't function how he wanted them too and it would cost Him the crucifixions of His dear Son, what kind of God, logic, or sanity is that? No creator would create something with foreknowledge knowing the way they would make it, it wouldn't function the way they wanted it, no human creator or Divine creator, especially if it would cost them their sinless son! I guess this is the logic you must use when you reject God's predestination.