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Do Catholics now believe in Faith Alone?

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The presence that Christ promises is that which can be physically received with the elements of bread and wine. The presence which you speak of cannot be physically received. [/QB]
I never deny that Christ is present at the Lord Supper. period.

Can you prove that Bread is changed to flesh?

You can check with the leftover of the Bread.

Many Roman Catholic have claimed that the eyes of the statue of Virgin Mary is bleeding, then some people collected the blood and tested it, it turned out to be blood of men, or sometimes the blood of pigs.

Did Mary become a pig?
What a blasphemy to your Holy Mother !
 

Chemnitz

New Member
What does a bleeding statue have to do with me? I could careless about statues or bleeding statues. Besides what do they have to do with the Real Presence.

Again, Eliyahu, checking leftovers is pointless as I pointed out earlier, the promise of the presence of His Body and Blood pertains only to the sacrament which occurs with the confines of the eating and drinking.

You have catagorically denied the Presence of Christ in Holy Communion by denying His promises, by denying His word.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Which Word have I denied and by how ?

I mentioned that Jesus is present at the scene of Lord's Supper all the time and you deny that Jesus is present everywhere and any time. Do you believe this?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Kiffen:
I am reminded of a Pastor when serving the Lord's Supper that he kept repeating to his congregation "This is not the Body of Christ" "This is not the Blood of Christ" :confused:

Only problem was he was refuting Jesus words. :eek:
He was telling the truth and not refuting the words of Christ at all, only clarifying them.
What is the difference between a RC priest saying:
"This is the body of Christ."
amd a Baptist Pastor saying:
"This is the body of Christ."

There is a world of difference. I would rather take the pastor's position of clarification saying that this is not the body of Christ as the Catholic's believe. It is not the literal body of Christ. It is simply symbolic, as it is.
DHK
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The RCC says the RC Eucharist would be pure “idolatry” if non-Catholics are right about priests having no magic powers to “confect GOD”!

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

Parenthetical inserts “mine”

The Faith Explained – Page 350

“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.

Ibid. Page 351
A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the Catholic opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshipping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.

IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the Catholic option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the Catholic document blame the Apostles instead of the Catholic church’s tradition that interjects this RC heresy?), mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
St. Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized [Ref. Unknown] (C. 373 AD):

"Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so as long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine - and thus is His Body confected."

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Bread2.htm#2
The “change of substance ” of bread into the Body of Christ and wine into the Blood of Christ at the Consecration of the Mass. Although this fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church was held by the faithful since apostolic days, the term “transubstantiation” was adopted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, to describe the Eucharistic mystery. This was reinforced by the Council of Trent (1545-63), which spoke of “a wonderful and singular conversion” of the Eucharistic elements.

Only a validly ordained priest can confect the Eucharist. Because of the reality of transubstantiation, reference to the Eucharistic Species as “bread and wine” is wrong. They are properly called the Body and Blood of Christ.

Reverend Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Ph.D., S.T.L. Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia. Copyright © 1994, Our Sunday Visitor.
As for JPII on this notion of Confecting Christ --

The priest offers the holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering "in the name of' or "in place of" Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with "the eternal High Priest"[42] who is the author and principal subject of this sacrifice of His, a sacrifice in which, in truth, nobody can take His place. Only He -- only Christ -- was able and is always able to be the true and effective "expiation for our sins and . . . for the sins of the whole world."[43] Only His sacrifice -- and no one else's -- was able and is able to have a "propitiatory power" before God, the Trinity, and the transcendent holiness. Awareness of this reality throws a certain light on the character and significance of the priest celebrant who, by confecting the holy Sacrifice and acting "in persona Christi," is sacramentally (and ineffably) brought into that most profound sacredness, and made part of it, spiritually linking with it in turn all those participating in the eucharistic assembly.

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02dc.htm
“powers” of the RC Priest retained after excommunication

Catholic Digest – Jan 1995, pg 126

Q: Our former priest has been excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and h as opened his own Church, which he calls “Christ Catholic Mission”. He now has some kind of connection with what he calls the “Catholic Church of God and Christ” with headquarters in Missouri. More and more people are attending his church. Some are former Catholics, but those I asked did not know whether this priest still had the power of consecrating the bread and wine for Communion. Does he? M.M


A.Yes. But he commits a grave sin of disobedience if he is excommunicated… The priest’s Consecration can be valid, that is, there can be the real change of bread and wine INTO the body and blood of Christ, but it is illicit because of his excommunication and brings him no actual graces.

You sometimes hear that the reason the Church recognizes the validity of an excommunicated priest’s Mass, and his continuing power to forgive sin, is the salvation of the dying in cases of necessity. But the deeper reason is the mark of the Holy Orders, along with Baptism and Confirmation, puts on the soul.

Of course “Mark on the soul” is just a figure of speech to indicate the difference between the baptized and the nonbaptized , the confirmed and the nonconfirmed, the ordained and the nonordained. Once the status of a soul is established by any of the three sacraments, it cannot be changed by any human power so as to be like it was before the reception of these sacraments.

The apostate priest does not lose the power to confect the Eucharist or forgive sins through the sacrament of Penance. He does, by his apostasy, lose the power to do these things licitly, without sin.

The legal mechanics of all this is that only the bishop has the fullness of the priesthood, the power to govern. Consequently, the ordained priest must have the permission of a bishop to exercise the powers of Consecration and absolving. The bread and wine consecrated by an excommunicated priest truly becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, [/i but the priest and anyone who knowingly receives Communion from him is guilty of extremely serious sin.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
I never denied Christ's omnipresence, in fact, on just the previous page I stated that I believe in His omnipresence.

You have repeatedly denied that Christ is offering you His body and His Blood. Therefore, you have denied and doubted the word of promise of God.
He was telling the truth and not refuting the words of Christ at all, only clarifying them.
What is the difference between a RC priest saying:
"This is the body of Christ."
amd a Baptist Pastor saying:
"This is the body of Christ."

There is a world of difference. I would rather take the pastor's position of clarification saying that this is not the body of Christ as the Catholic's believe. It is not the literal body of Christ. It is simply symbolic, as it is.
I love this, a person who professes to believe in Sola Scriptura claiming that the Word of God is not sufficient. This is just too funny.
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Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Are the RCC afraid that their theories turn to be lies ?

Why don't they prove that the Bread become flesh, and that Wine become Blood by allowing the residue or remaining part of the bread be tested by the laboratories ?

Were they changed only when they ate and drank ? and then quickly returned back to the bread and wine, even though they didn't pray for such magic show ?

It is a magic show ! by pagan worshippers !
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
If the SUBSTANCE has not changed, but people remember that Christ died for them, by breaking bread and drinking wine, then it is exactly the same faith as the most protestants believe, which understands bread and wine as symbolizing the Flesh and Blood.
 

Debby in Philly

Active Member
The whole Passover meal was a foreshadowing, a picture, of Christ's sacrifice. Because the words are metaphor ("this is my body....") and not similie ("this is like my body...."), the RCC and others got tripped up. But ask any language or literature teacher, both metaphor and similie are SYMBOLIC devices.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Isaiah 40:6-7
All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

Does this mean that all of our flesh is grass ?

There is no word "like"


I think we need only one single thread for all the issues on Roman Catholicism
 

Charles Meadows

New Member
Yes I think one thread would suffice for all of these.

I still fail to see why all of the catholic-bashing.

Yes the RCC is flat wrong about a number of things.

But that does not mean that the average church member who has faith in Jesus doesn't have the same salvation available to him/her as we baptists do.

So why all the back and forth references to canon law and Trent? These have no more bearing on the average churchman than slavery and the American church has on the average baptist today.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
Are the RCC afraid that their theories turn to be lies ?

Why don't they prove that the Bread become flesh, and that Wine become Blood by allowing the residue or remaining part of the bread be tested by the laboratories ?
I think they would be horrified by the idea of running tests, but not for fear of being proven wrong. They would be horrified at the idea of desecrating the Body and Blood of Christ. If they were very hesitant to subject the Shroud of Turin to tests don't you think they would be even more weary of subjecting Christ Himself to lab tests?

Personally I think you are wasting your time, because even if you didn't find any evidence of human tissue or human blood it would still leave as a valid option the things that I have stated and at most bolster our (Lutherans) case against the RCC's abuses of the Sacrament.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Some guys tested the blood shed from the eyes of the statue of Mary, and it showed the blood was men's or that of a pig !

Jesus proved himself to Thomas, touch me !

Chemnitz:
Personally I think you are wasting your time, because even if you didn't find any evidence of human tissue or human blood it would still leave as a valid option the things that I have stated and at most bolster our (Lutherans) case against the RCC's abuses of the Sacrament

Chemnitz, Lutherans and billions of RC are wasting time for the Heretics !

Why don't you answer about Isaiah 40:6-8?
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
This Thread is about whether RCC now preach the gospel saying Faith Alone. If RCC teaches really Sola Fide, then there is no problem and we have no argument. However this thread reveals that many people deviate from Faith Alone in reality.
If that is the case, the argument still exist.

Therefore the main question now is this

Does RC believe Faith Alone now ?
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
If RC believes that Wine becomes Blood, then they must have the conviction that the contents of the cup is the Blood, is it desecrating the Blood, if its residue be tested?

Are you worshipping the Wine?
Verifying the contents as real or not is so much desecrating ? It is Superstitious! Soccerors use the same logic when they defend their own sacred things.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Eliyahu:
This Thread is about whether RCC now preach the gospel saying Faith Alone. If RCC teaches really Sola Fide, then there is no problem and we have no argument. However this thread reveals that many people deviate from Faith Alone in reality.
If that is the case, the argument still exist.

Therefore the main question now is this

Does RC believe Faith Alone now ?
Read the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification by faith to which I earlier linked and see for yourself.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
Why don't you answer about Isaiah 40:6-8?
I did respond in order to point out your hermenuetical fallacy. Try reading next time instead of assuming.

Are you worshipping the Wine?
:rolleyes: No, I don't.

Verifying the contents as real or not is so much desecrating ? It is Superstitious! Soccerors use the same logic when they defend their own sacred things.
People get touchy about anything associated with Christ, how much more touchy do you think somebody is going to be when dealing with what they believe is the Blood of Christ?
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
What nobody has answered me :

Why Don't Roman Catholic distribute the Blood converted from Wine to the people attending the Eucharist?
As far as I noticed and heard, RC doesn't distribute to their believers but the priests only have to chance to drink the Blood.

Can anyone answer this ?
 

Chemnitz

New Member
I know this is long, for which I apologize, but it may answer some questions.

Article XXII (X): Of Both Kinds In the Lord's Supper.
1] It cannot be doubted that it is godly and in accordance with the institution of Christ and the
words of Paul to use both parts in the Lord's Supper. For Christ instituted both parts, and
instituted them not for a part of the Church, but for the entire Church. For not only the
presbyters, but the entire Church uses the Sacrament by the authority of Christ, and not by
human authority; and this, 2] we suppose, the adversaries acknowledge. Now, if Christ has
instituted it for the entire Church, why is one kind denied to a part of the Church? Why is the
use of the other kind prohibited? Why is the ordinance of Christ changed, especially when He
Himself calls it His testament? But if it is not allowable to annul man's testament, much less will
it be allowable to annul the testament of Christ. 3] And Paul says, 1 Cor. 11, 23ff , that he had
received of the Lord that which he delivered. But he had delivered the use of both kinds, as the
text, 1 Cor. 11, clearly shows. This do [in remembrance of Me], he says first concerning His
body; afterwards he repeats the same words concerning the cup [the blood of Christ]. And then:
Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. [Here he
names both.] These are the words of Him who has instituted the Sacrament. And, indeed, he
says before that those who will use the Lord's Supper should use both. 4] It is evident,
therefore, that the Sacrament was instituted for the entire Church. And the custom still remains
in the Greek churches, and also once obtained in the Latin churches, as Cyprian and Jerome
testify. For thus Jerome says on Zephaniah: The priests who administer the Eucharist, and
distribute the Lord's blood to the people, etc. The Council of Toledo gives the same testimony.
Nor would it be difficult to accumulate a great multitude of testimonies. 5] Here we exaggerate
nothing; we but leave the prudent reader to determine what should be held concerning the
divine ordinance [whether it is proper to prohibit and change an ordinance and institution of
Christ].
6] The adversaries in the Confutation do not endeavor to [comfort the consciences or] excuse
the Church, to which one part of the Sacrament has been denied. This would have been
becoming to good and religious men. For a strong reasons for excusing the Church, and
instructing consciences to whom only a part of the Sacrament could be granted, should have
been sought. Now these very men maintain that it is right to prohibit the other part, and forbid
that the use of both parts be allowed. 7] First, they imagine that, in the beginning of the Church,
it was the custom at some places that only one part was administered. Nevertheless they are
not able to produce any ancient example of this matter. But they cite the passages in which
mention is made of bread, as in Luke 24, 35, where it is written that the disciples recognized
Christ in the breaking of bread. They quote also other passages, Acts 2, 42. 46; 20, 7,
concerning the breaking of bread. But although we do not greatly oppose if some receive these
passages as referring to the Sacrament, yet it does not follow that one part only was given,
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because, according to the ordinary usage of language, by the naming of one part the other is
also signified. 8] They refer also to Lay Communion, which was not the use of only one kind,
but of both; and whenever priests are commanded to use Lay Communion [for a punishment
are not to consecrate themselves, but to receive Communion, however, of both kinds, from
another], it is meant that they have been removed from the ministry of consecration. Neither are
the adversaries ignorant of this, but they abuse the ignorance of the unlearned, who, when they
hear of Lay Communion, immediately dream of the custom of our time, by which only a part of
the Sacrament is given to the laymen.
9] And consider their impudence. Gabriel recounts among other reasons why both parts are not
given that a distinction should be made between laymen and presbyters. And it is credible that
the chief reason why the prohibition of the one part is defended is this, namely, that the dignity
of the order may be the more highly exalted by a religious rite. To say nothing more severe, this
is a human design; and whither this tends can easily be judged. 10] In the Confutation they also
quote concerning the sons of Eli that, after the loss of the high-priesthood, they were to seek
the one part pertaining to the priests, 1 Sam. 2, 36 (the text reads: Every one that is left in thine
house shall come and crouch to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and shall say,
Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priest's offices (German: Lieber, la mich zu einem
Priesterteil) that I may eat a piece of bread]. Here they say that the use of one kind was
signified. And they add: "Thus, therefore, our laymen ought also to be content, with one part
pertaining to the priests, with one kind." The adversaries [the masters of the Confutation are
quite shameless, rude asses, and] are clearly trifling when they are transferring the history of
the posterity of Eli to the Sacrament. The punishment of Eli is there described. Will they also
say this, that as a punishment the laymen have been removed from the other part? [They are
quite foolish and mad.] The Sacrament was instituted to console and comfort terrified minds,
when they believe that the flesh of Christ, given for the life of the world, is food, when they
believe that, being joined to Christ [through this food], they are made alive. But the adversaries
argue that laymen are removed from the other part as a punishment. "They ought," they say,
"to be content." 11] This is sufficient for a despot. [That, surely, sounds proud and defiant
enough.] But [my lords, may we ask the reason] why ought they? "The reason must not be
asked, but let whatever the theologians say be law." [Is whatever you wish and whatever you
say to be sheer truth? See now and be astonished how shameless and impudent the
adversaries are: they dare to set up their own words as sheer commands of lords; they frankly
say: The laymen must be content. But what if they must not?] This is a concoction of Eck. For
we recognize those vainglorious words, which if we would wish to criticize, there would be no
want of language. For you see how great the impudence is. He commands, as a tyrant in the
tragedies: "Whether they wish or not, 12] they must be content." Will the reasons which he cites
excuse, in the judgment of God, those who prohibit a part of the Sacrament, and rage against
men using an entire Sacrament? [Are they to take comfort in the fact that it is recorded
concerning the sons of Eli: They will go begging? That will be a shuffling excuse at the
judgment seat of God.] 13] If they make the prohibition in order that there should be a
distinguishing mark of the order, this very reason ought to move us not to assent to the
adversaries, even though we would be disposed in other respects to comply with their custom.
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LCMS: The Defense of the Augsburg Confession
There are other distinguishing marks of the order of priests and of the people, but it is not
obscure what design they have for defending this distinction so earnestly. That we may not
seem to detract from the true worth of the order, we will not say more concerning this shrewd
design.
14] They also allege the danger of spilling and certain similar things, which do not have force
sufficient 15] to change the ordinance of Christ. [They allege more dreams like these, for the
sake of which it would be improper to change the ordinance of Christ.] And, indeed, if we
assume that we are free to use either one part or both, how can the prohibition [to use both
kinds] be defended? Although the Church does not assume to itself the liberty to convert the
ordinances of Christ into 16] matters of indifference. We indeed excuse the Church which has
borne the injury [the poor consciences which have been deprived of one part by force], since it
could not obtain both parts; but the authors who maintain that the use of the entire Sacrament
is justly prohibited, and who now not only prohibit, but even excommunicate and violently
persecute those using an entire Sacrament, we do not excuse. Let them see to it how they will
give an account to God for their decisions. 17] Neither is it to be judged immediately that the
Church determines or approves whatever the pontiffs determine, especially since Scripture
prophesies concerning the bishops and pastors to effect this as Ezekiel 7, 26 says: The Law
shall perish from the priest [there will be priests or bishops who will know no command or law of
God].
 
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