Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[1689Dave]

???? Don't even know what you mean. My students are peace abiding future pastors, evangelists, and missionaries.


???? I don't even use that vocabulary.

We recently had a friend of mine here to speak in our missions conference who lived in Israel in order to learn Hebrew, since he is a Bible translator. Apparently he didn't commit any bloodshed while there. Whew, narrow escape for a dispensational missionary not to commit bloodshed!

I know many godly Dispensationalists. But if they think pagan Israel has a divine right to Canaan, are they guilty of the blood shed from the wars and terrorism that it spawns? The NT shows they are not biblical Israel and not heirs of the promise made to Abraham.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

 

[Rob_BW]

You should answer these questions and not duck away from them.

If I asked you when you stopped beating your w

The Jews say Jesus is boiling in feces in hell/Hades/whatever.

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.

And? Scientology says just as bad. Islam and Buddhism denies His divinity. Atheists have said as much and worse.

Sure, it would be shocking if dispensationalists believed Jews can be saved without Christ, but since none of us (so far in this thread, I cannot speak for the lunatic fringe) believe that, what is the point?

I believe God will save his people before the end. But until that time, we should seek to evangelize them just as we would any other people.

 

[1689Dave]

If I asked you when you stopped beating your w

And? Scientology says just as bad. Islam and Buddhism denies His divinity. Atheists have said as much and worse.

Sure, it would be shocking if dispensationalists believed Jews can be saved without Christ, but since none of us (so far in this thread, I cannot speak for the lunatic fringe) believe that, what is the point?

I believe God will save his people before the end. But until that time, we should seek to evangelize them just as we would any other people.

Paul says only through belief in Christ. National restoration? No. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Rob_BW]

Paul says only through belief in Christ. National restoration? No. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

Did you even read what I wrote? Point to where anyone has tied citizenship in the state of Israel to salvation. You are jousting at windmills.

 

[church mouse guy]

The Jews say Jesus is boiling in feces in hell/Hades/whatever.

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.

Stop it! That doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You yourself make accusations about Evangelicals.

 

[Shoostie]

The Jews say Jesus is boiling in feces in hell/Hades/whatever.

In some Christian circles, you're more likely to be judged for pointing that out than you are to get an admission of what Jews actually do believe. It's like arguing with a woman, you'll get in more trouble if you're actually right.

 

[1689Dave]

Did you even read what I wrote? Point to where anyone has tied citizenship in the state of Israel to salvation. You are jousting at windmills.

I only said any Jews who accept Christ by faith will become true members of Israel aka the Church. But there will never be a national restoration of pagan Israel. Israel is purely spiritual under Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Stop it! That doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You yourself make accusations about Evangelicals.

Read the Talmud, the Jewish bible. This is mild. They exist only because of their hatred of God (Jesus). The true Israel accepted Jesus into whom we believing gentiles were grafted.

 

[Rob_BW]

I only said any Jews who accept Christ by faith will become true members of Israel aka the Church. But there will never be a national restoration of pagan Israel. Israel is purely spiritual under Christ.

And I believe that the 144,000 in Revelation means God will redeem His former nation before the end. We differ on that matter, and that's fine. I don't see differences in eschatology as some insurmountable obstacle to conversation.

But throwing the blame on dispensationalists for every drop of blood spilled in the Middle East is a bit much. God has certainly allowed a Jewish nation to reform. They have fought back the nations that sought to topple them. At some point the history is settled. I don't expect the English to give their land back to the Anglo-Saxons, or earlier Brythonic Celts. I don't expect Turkey to evacuate their country and give it back to the Greeks. The wars were fought, and it's over.

 

[1689Dave]

And I believe that the 144,000 in Revelation means God will redeem His former nation before the end. We differ on that matter, and that's fine. I don't see differences in eschatology as some insurmountable obstacle to conversation.

But throwing the blame on dispensationalists for every drop of blood spilled in the Middle East is a bit much. God has certainly allowed a Jewish nation to reform. They have fought back the nations that sought to topple them. At some point the history is settled. I don't expect the English to give their land back to the Anglo-Saxons, or earlier Brythonic Celts. I don't expect Turkey to evacuate their country and give it back to the Greeks. The wars were fought, and it's over.

Notice the difference in the original tribes and the NT version of the tribes. They are different, further lending to their symbolic nature.

 

[Rob_BW]

Notice the difference in the original tribes and the NT version of the tribes. They are different, further lending to their symbolic nature.

I know, we disagree.

How about this, secular Israel being no different then pagan Rome, then wouldn't Romans 13 apply to those living within its borders?

 

[church mouse guy]

Read the Talmud, the Jewish bible. This is mild. They exist only because of their hatred of God (Jesus). The true Israel accepted Jesus into whom we believing gentiles were grafted.

At my age why do I want to waste borrowed time on the Talmud? It is not a Bible but a commentary. The Jews admit Jesus existed. All this stuff on this thread is the Achilles heel of preterism because gentiles are not the apple of God's eye. Evangelicals have nothing to do with ME wars. Allah causes them.

 

[1689Dave]

I know, we disagree.

How about this, secular Israel being no different then pagan Rome, then wouldn't Romans 13 apply to those living within its borders?

But Christians supporting pagan Rome in their bloodshed thinking they had a divine right to Europe based on a promise to Abraham would make about as much sense.

 

[1689Dave]

At my age why do I want to waste borrowed time on the Talmud? It is not a Bible but a commentary. The Jews admit Jesus existed. All this stuff on this thread is the Achilles heel of preterism because gentiles are not the apple of God's eye. Evangelicals have nothing to do with ME wars. Allah causes them.

The Talmud is wicked beyond belief. It is the traditions Jesus condemned only now in writing.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:20 AM Pacific.