Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[John of Japan]

Obviously you do not teach this. But does what you teach produce this in people's world views?

???? Don't even know what you mean. My students are peace abiding future pastors, evangelists, and missionaries.

Do you believe pagan Israel has rights to Canaan which justifies the bloodshed?

???? I don't even use that vocabulary.

We recently had a friend of mine here to speak in our missions conference who lived in Israel in order to learn Hebrew, since he is a Bible translator. Apparently he didn't commit any bloodshed while there. Whew, narrow escape for a dispensational missionary not to commit bloodshed!

 

[agedman]

You should answer these questions and not duck away from them.

Why address questions that are not really applicable?

There are goofy dispensationalists just as there are cognitively challenged a-millennialist, dopey post-millennialist, and even dolt pre-terists.

Such is not limited to any single scheme concerning the last times.

What your challenging is seemingly concerning would be the “Darby” style dispensation teaching, which is faulty, but not nearly as much as the others.

This is born out in the fact that virtually ALL true Bible scholars attest that the single scheme which consistently and is clearly the most Scripture based is dispensational.

Therefore, teaching the authority of the Scriptures does not need to neglect that which is endorsed as the best of all.

Besides, it is what 5he early church taught.

All others are products from perverted Roman Catholic scholarship seeking to fulfill the Roman Catholic ungodly agenda. That is historical fact.

 

[agedman]

Obviously you do not teach this. But does what you teach produce this in people's world views? Do you believe pagan Israel has rights to Canaan which justifies the bloodshed?

You really do have so little understanding of history?

Israel didn’t bring bloodshed.

From the time of the collapse of Rome, the area has had continued blood shed!

The conflict didn’t start with the twentieth century.

 

[atpollard]

Do you just make stuff up? Zechariah 2:8 (KJV) For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

[Zechariah 2:1-13 NASB]
1 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, [there was] a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is." 3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him, 4 and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it. 5 'For I,' declares the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'"

6 "Ho there! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens," declares the LORD. 7 "Ho, Zion! Escape, you who are living with the daughter of Babylon." 8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. 9 "For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. 10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD. 11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 "The LORD will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

13 "Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD; for He is aroused from His holy habitation."​

Didn't this happen?

• v.5 'For I,' declares the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'"
  • [Mat 1:18-25 NASB] 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took [Mary] as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
• v.11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
  • [Mat 28:19-20 NASB] 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
  • [Act 2:5-11 NASB] 5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we each hear [them] in our own language to which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our [own] tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
  • [Act 10:45 NASB] 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
    [Act 11:18 NASB] 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance [that leads] to life."
    [Act 13:48 NASB] 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they [began] rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
    [Act 15:17 NASB] 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
  • [1Co 12:12-13, 27 NASB] 12 For even as the body is one and [yet] has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. ... 27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.

 

[John of Japan]

I know a dispensationalist pastor who was on a trip to Israel. His tour was lead into the Palestinian territory by one of the top three intifada leaders, though they did not know it at the time. They were ministering at a church of Palestinian believers when the PLO took over an Israeli hospital next door. The tour guide/PLO leader immediately got them out of there just as the PLO were putting rocks around their buses with murderous intent.

Let me see. Dispensational tour in Palestine at a church of Palestinian Christians. PLO folk trying to stop them and commit mayhem. The PLO taking over an Israeli hospital next door. The Palestinian guide getting them out of there before the PLO killed them. Hmm. Maybe this is the kind of dispensationalist-inspired violence 1689 is talking about.

 

[Calminian]

It is apparent that you know very little about real dispensationalism. I teach the subject in college, and don't even give a mention to any of these questions. They are not dispensational in content or understanding.

It's a ruse to cover up his own personal disdain for Israel.

You should answer these questions and not duck away from them.

He did. You should come to grips with your bad theology and its consequences.

 

[church mouse guy]

You caught me ... there is no Chapter 3 in Galatians. I just made that quote up myself.

No, you said that Jesus not the Jews are the apple of God's eye. Scripture says the Jews. Did you just make that up about Jesus?

 

[Van]

I never said that being the Chosen People had anything to do with salvation so I don't know why you are writing about that. I did say that Scripture teaches that the Jews are the apple of God's eye but 1689 is a gentile so he is not the apple of God's eye.

My question involved this phrase, "Judaism became devoid of salvation." I thought your implication was Judaism had provided salvation, and that provision was terminated when the veil was rent.

Apparently that was not your implication.

 

[church mouse guy]

My question involved this phrase, "Judaism became devoid of salvation." I thought your implication was Judaism had provided salvation, and that provision was terminated when the veil was rent.

Apparently that was not your implication.

Sorry for my lack of clarity. I believe that since the cross Jews have had to come to Jesus for Salvation.

 

[Shoostie]

Calling Jews God's Chosen People has nothing to do with salvation.

What does "Chosen People" mean? How can someone be God's People and not be saved?

 

[Shoostie]

I did say that Scripture teaches that the Jews are the apple of God's eye

If Hitler were Jew (he may have been), then he'd have been the apple of God's eye? Judas was in fact a Jew, so he was the Apple of God's eye?

Deuteronomy 32 says, "[God] kept [Jacob] as the apple of his eye... the Lord alone guided him, no foreign god was with him." The passage appears to equate the Hebrews in the desert with the apple of God's eye, thus the claim the Jews are the apple of God's eye. You need to take notice that the passage says "The Lord alone guided him, no foreign god was with him." The Bible does not NOT not teach that unbelievers are ever considered to be God's people. In fact, it is explicit in telling us that unbelieving Jews are not NOT not God's people (Hosea 1, "not my people").

 

[church mouse guy]

If Hitler were Jew (he may have been), then he'd have been the apple of God's eye? Judas was in fact a Jew, so he was the Apple of God's eye?

Deuteronomy 32 says, "[God] kept [Jacob] as the apple of his eye... the Lord alone guided him, no foreign god was with him." The passage appears to equate the Hebrews in the desert with the apple of God's eye, thus the claim the Jews are the apple of God's eye. You need to take notice that the passage says "The Lord alone guided him, no foreign god was with him." The Bible does not NOT not teach that unbelievers are ever considered to be God's people. In fact, it is explicit in telling us that unbelieving Jews are not NOT not God's people (Hosea 1, "not my people").

I am guessing that not my people and apple of my eye are two different things.

 

[church mouse guy]

What does "Chosen People" mean? How can someone be God's People and not be saved?

Jews were/are ordinary people chosen by God to prepare the way for the Messiah. Not all believed just because they belonged to one of the tribes. Check it out and let me know if I am wrong.

 

[robycop3]

So you agree with them? Jesus is boiling in feces in hades or hell?

No, he didn't go to hell. He went to PARADISE for 3 days.

 

[robycop3]

Jews were/are ordinary people chosen by God to prepare the way for the Messiah. Not all believed just because they belonged to one of the tribes. Check it out and let me know if I am wrong.

The Jews are only PART of Israel. The other tribes are not Jews. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi make up the Jews.

 

[Shoostie]

Jews were/are ordinary people chosen by God to prepare the way for the Messiah. Not all believed just because they belonged to one of the tribes. Check it out and let me know if I am wrong.

The tribes took immigrants and expelled people. They were like a physical church. If you weren't a Believer, you weren't to be a member. If you were a Believer, that's all that mattered.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:20 AM Pacific.

 

[church mouse guy]

The tribes took immigrants and expelled people. They were like a physical church. If you weren't a Believer, you weren't to be a member. If you were a Believer, that's all that mattered.

I have no idea where that is on Scripture.

 

[church mouse guy]

The Jews are only PART of Israel. The other tribes are not Jews. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi make up the Jews.

I am using the term to describe both Judah and Israel as well as ancient Israel and modern day Israel. Are you a preterist?

 

[1689Dave]

No, he didn't go to hell. He went to PARADISE for 3 days.

The Jews say Jesus is boiling in feces in hell/Hades/whatever.

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.