Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[Van]

Hi Church Mouse Guy,

You said,
"Calling Jews God's Chosen People has nothing to do with salvation. When Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was rent in two and Judaism became devoid of salvation."

I do not think the OT Saints were "saved" through "Judaism. By the works of the Law, no flesh is justified. The OT Saints obtained approval through faith in God, but we actually saved through the blood of Christ, IMO. That is why they had to wait in "Abraham's bosom" to be made perfect until Christ died.

 

[church mouse guy]

It helps understand the bible if you understand this.

I understand that it is null and void. I am glad that you admitted that you are a gentile. At least you did not falsely say that you are a Cherokee Indian like Elizabeth Warren. You do sound like a Catholic, however. Oh, didn't a Jesuit formulate Preterism for you?

 

[church mouse guy]

Hi Church Mouse Guy,

You said,
"Calling Jews God's Chosen People has nothing to do with salvation. When Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was rent in two and Judaism became devoid of salvation."

I do not think the OT Saints were "saved" through "Judaism. By the works of the Law, no flesh is justified. The OT Saints obtained approval through faith in God, but we actually saved through the blood of Christ, IMO. That is why they had to wait in "Abraham's bosom" to be made perfect until Christ died.

I never said that being the Chosen People had anything to do with salvation so I don't know why you are writing about that. I did say that Scripture teaches that the Jews are the apple of God's eye but 1689 is a gentile so he is not the apple of God's eye.

 

[1689Dave]

I never said that being the Chosen People had anything to do with salvation so I don't know why you are writing about that. I did say that Scripture teaches that the Jews are the apple of God's eye but 1689 is a gentile so he is not the apple of God's eye.

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.

 

[church mouse guy]

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.

So what? The also say Jesus is a bastard so they prove that He existed. All non-Christians say bad things about Jesus.

You say bad things about Christians because Southern Baptist Harry Truman recognized Israel right away in 1948. Preterism really should shut up about Israel. You sound like some jihadi.

 

[1689Dave]

So what? The also say Jesus is a bastard so they prove that He existed. All non-Christians say bad things about Jesus.

You say bad things about Christians because Southern Baptist Harry Truman recognized Israel right away in 1948. Preterism really should shut up about Israel. You sound like some jihadi.

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:” Romans 9:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[robycop3]

Ezekiel calls for sin atoning animal sacrifices. = Judaism replaces Christianity.

That's all that was known to Zeke at that time. And the Jews DO plan to resume animal sacrifices. They're breeding the animals to do it with.

But it does not replace Christianity. Most Jews have never accepted Christianity anyway, believing we're still under the Old Covenant.

 

[robycop3]

Romans 11 says it happened.

Have you gone bonkers? Romans 11 says JUST THE OPPOSITE ! !

 

[1689Dave]

That's all that was known to Zeke at that time. And the Jews DO plan to resume animal sacrifices. They're breeding the animals to do it with.

But it does not replace Christianity. Most Jews have never accepted Christianity anyway, believing we're still under the Old Covenant.

So they are not God's people after all?

 

[1689Dave]

Have you gone bonkers? Romans 11 says JUST THE OPPOSITE ! !

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[robycop3]

Did you know today Pagan Israel exists only because they rejected Jesus? The true Israel remained in accepting him. Also pagan Israel says Jesus is boiling in hell in feces. So John considers them Antichrists because they deny Jesus the Messiah came in the flesh. But any of them who accept Christ will be reattached to biblical Israel.

How GOOFY! Israel exists because God has preserved the Jews. He didn't cause them to lose their national ID as He did the 10 tribes.

And despite your silly arguments, today's Jews are still Jews, They've been punished far-worse than the 10 tribes have been. Why. God told Zeke that Aholah & Aholibah, Samaria & Jerusalem respectively, were punished for idol worship Judah saw what happened to the 10 tribes for it, but then EXCEEDED her in idol worship, & thus, was punished far-more-severely. (Far as we can tell, the 10 tribes lived a benign existence after their exile.)

You may check out any work of history you like, & you will NOT find another people or nation that's taken the abuse the Jews have, & still retained their national identity.

Ever since their exile by Hadrian, they were hated for murdering Jesus, they were hated for being "money-grubbers", they were often accused (usually unjustly) of being sexual perverts, child-molesters, & spreaders of "social diseases". Their punishment culminated in the nazi holocaust. After that, God began to lift their punishment.

But GOD still has plans for both Judah & Israel. he has begun restoring Jusah in their own land again, with Jerusalem once again their capital. They're the "pound-for-pound" military champs of all time. And their nation is becoming wealthy.

And an often-overlooked prophecy in Isaiah 19 has cometa pass. The land of Judah is a terror to the Egyptians, just as prophesied ! Evert time a Jew rattles, his Uzi, the 80 million Egyptians quake in their fezzes. They've had their butts kicked several times by Israel, & they don't want it again !

The Jews have fulfilled many prophecies, despite themselves, & they'll fulfill all the rest as well ! Deny this all ya want, Dave, but Scripture & history prove you WRONG !

 

[robycop3]

Here's what pagan Israel says about Jesus among other things.

The most bizarre of all the Jesus stories is the one that tells how Jesus shares his place in the Netherworld with Titus and Balaam, the notorious archenemies of the Jewish people. Whereas Titus is punished for the destruction of the Temple by being burned to ashes, reassembled, and burned over and over again, and whereas Balaam is castigated by sitting in hot semen, Jesus’ fate consists of sitting forever in boiling excrement. This obscene story has occupied scholars for a long time, without any satisfactory solution. I will speculate that it is again the deliberate, and quite graphic, answer to a New Testament claim, this time Jesus’ promise that eating his flesh and drinking his blood guarantees eternal life to his followers. Understood this way, the story conveys an ironic message: not only did Jesus not rise from the dead, he is punished in hell forever; accordingly, his followers—the blossoming Church, which maintains to be the new Israel—are nothing but a bunch of fools, misled by a cunning deceiver.

Peter Schafer. Jesus in the Talmud.

That comes from the KJV's mistranslation of hades as "hell".

 

[Calminian]

Paul stated that God still has plans for the Jewish people and nation,m has not totally forever rejected them, why do you?

Exactly. Not only this, I support Israel for completely non-religious reasons. They are the most open, fair and righteous nation in the middle east. They allow Christians to come in and worship the true God without hinderance or persecution. They show the most restraint of any nation in history against aggression, and they for sure have endured the most aggression of any nation in history.

Israel also offers a convincing apologetic for biblical truth. Only anti-God, anti-Bible, spiritual sickness can explain men's hatred for the people and nation God specially raised up. Only the Bible contains the framework that can logically explain antisemitism.

IOW's the veiled attack on Israel by the OP is completely without merit. We're not called to stir up hatred of unbelievers of any people group. We're called to share the gospel with those who will listen, and live the gospel before those who won't.

BTW, I don't include non-dispensationalists in general in my comment above, just the OP.

 

[1689Dave]

That comes from the KJV's mistranslation of hades as "hell".

So you agree with them? Jesus is boiling in feces in hades or hell?

 

[John of Japan]

It's called dual-covenant theology and is taught be some people, and implied by other people. It teaches that Jews, because of Abraham, are automatically saved, even without accepting Christ. Any Christian group which agrees not to proselytize in Israel, or chooses not to proselytize to Jews, implicitly believes in duel-covenant theology.

Here's an example: Christian leader calls to stop proselytizing Jews

Never heard of this, and I teach dispensational theology. I know of many ind. Baptists who are missionaries to Israel, including personal friends. We recently had a missionary to Israel here under the International Board of Jewish Missions, founded by Jacob Gartenhous, noted Baptist missionary to the Jews.

P. S. Are you trying to say "dual covenant theology"? Never heard of that either. It's certainly not any dispensational doctrine I ever heard of.

 

[John of Japan]

Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

I’m interested in how their support for the State of Israel fits into the plan to preach the gospel to all nations.

Paul teaches all of God’s promises are yes in Jesus. How can the ancient promises apply to those who exist solely because of their hatred and rejection of Jesus?

Does Dispensationalism teach two gospels? One for the church and another based on OT Law for the Jews? Where in the future another temple will replace the gospel with Judaism?

I have many more questions. But these first come to mind.

It is apparent that you know very little about real dispensationalism. I teach the subject in college, and don't even give a mention to any of these questions. They are not dispensational in content or understanding; therefore none of your thoughts are even mentioned in the textbook by Ryrie.

 

[1689Dave]

It is apparent that you know very little about real dispensationalism. I teach the subject in college, and don't even give a mention to any of these questions. They are not dispensational in content or understanding; therefore none of your thoughts are even mentioned in the textbook by Ryrie.

You should answer these questions and not duck away from them.

 

[John of Japan]

You should answer these questions and not duck away from them.

You have to be kidding me!! Your questions have nothing to do with what I believe or teach, so why would I have any obligation in the slightest to answer them? I'm not ducking away from them, I just don't care about them.

It's as if I was playing third, but you threw the ball into the stands. We're not even playing the same game! No, wait, it's as if I had my baseball glove on at third base, and you came out of the stands and threw a football near me, and then wondered why I didn't drop my baseball glove and dive to catch your football.

 

[atpollard]

Do you just make stuff up?

You caught me ... there is no Chapter 3 in Galatians. I just made that quote up myself.

 

[1689Dave]

You have to be kidding me!! Your questions have nothing to do with what I believe or teach, so why would I have any obligation in the slightest to answer them? I'm not ducking away from them, I just don't care about them.

It's as if I was playing third, but you threw the ball into the stands. We're not even playing the same game!

Obviously you do not teach this. But does what you teach produce this in people's world views? Do you believe pagan Israel has rights to Canaan which justifies the bloodshed?