Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?

[donnA]

wordsworth

Well, how many times can someone who is forever saved repent of sins, and how many times can someone's heart be cleansed? Do you have the number? Nay, why would they? If once saved always saved were a dogmatic truth, I John 1:9 would seem to be a verse to implore of God only once, at one's initial salvation. Once saved always saved seems to me to negate the need for future repentances and future cleansings, since security is rock solid. So, my question: Why do you say God "ASSUMES" we will sin, and when you do sin you make convenient use of I John 1:9, why the multiple repentances?

Someone who was firm in their once saved always saved position would only repent once and then rest upon God's "assumption" that the saved one will continue to sin; further repentance is done away with by the false sense of security.

Are you saying christians don't sin? You don't sin? We are not in bondage to sin, but in the flesh we still have our sin nature.
So when you commit one sin, you loose your salvation? How many times do you have to be saved to go to heaven? I believe the bible says only once. No where does it say to be saved over and over again. How would you know when you've lost your salvation and need to be saved again?

I did not say God assumed, but that John when he wrote this knew we are still going to sin. Even Paul struggled with his own sin. Did he loose his salvation? He didn't seem to think there was a reason to think so.

Sorry to seem to cut this short just got a call and have to leave.

 

[HankD]

Dear brethren,

This should be a no-brainer.

Eternal life is not eternal unless it lasts forever.

John 10:28 And I give (present tense) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

HankD

[ April 04, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[ddavis]

Does God chasten his children and if so why? 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 is written to Christians and it says some are weak, sick and many sleep. The word sleep means dead and why? Because they had taken to Lords table unworthily, so they had sin in their lives and were still Christians according to Paul.
The sins we commit break the fellowship with God not our salvation, as verse 30 shows he can take us home if we continue to drag his name in the mud. But once born you can NOT be unborn John 3.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Hi Frank,
Please bear with me as I am trying to see how one may come to this line of thinking.
Can I again address something you have posted? You write:
"I agree. We have failed to help the spiritually weak and unfaithful. Paul told the Galatian brethren that the spiritually minded should help those who were weaker and had fallen from the grace of God.( Gal.6:1,2;5:4)."

Scott responds:
Chapter 5 and 6 of Galatians speak of the contrast between the lust of the flesh and the result of walking in the spirit of God. Notice the word used in ch 5 verse 21, *practice*. These are men who are not saved of God. Practicing murderers will not inherit eternal life. Practicing murderers are not the people of God. Neither are those who also practice the other items in the list. How do you get that these men are men who have fallen from grace?

You also state:
" I do not have all the answers, but Biblical teaching and fellowship and the opportunity to apply ( work) will enable the faithful to remain such."

I reply:
This is the disharmony I wrote previously about. Yes (as James writes) our works are an outpouring of our salvation in Christ Jesus, faith without works is dead faith. But, our works do not guarantee salvation, God does, through His Son.
Scriptural harmony is: Faith brings good works, works do not support faith (in a salvific way), they are proof of our faith, a witness of our faith.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Welcoming your replies,
In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Frank,
I will begin slowly to address your *jots and tittles*. The reason I have not gone into detail is due to the fact that I have been trying to get my finger on just what _you believe_. Your profile states that you are a Christian (This is a Baptist only forum....by the way.) yet that which you post deny the basic tenets of historical Christian orthodoxy. I am in no way intending to resort here to ad hominem, but mind you Frank, it is difficult because your position
assaults all that I hold dear. It attacks the central lineage of thought in historic protestantism.

Justification:
You write:
" posted April 03, 2002 10:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott:
The Bible teaches that man is not justified by anything alone.
1. Man is justified by the blood of Christ.( Romans 5:9),
2. Man is Justified by faith.( Romans 5:1).
3. Man is justified by grace.( Romans 3:24).
4. Man is justified by God.( Romans 3:29).
5. Man is justified by Christ.( ICor.6:11).
6. Man is justified by the Spirit.( ICor.6:11).
7. Man is justified by works.( James 2:14,24).
The Bible teaches all these things justify
men,not faith only.

I reply:
Justification is (For lack of a better word) a general term to describe the central thought of the salvific event which occured at Calvary. Christ Himself cried out *tetelestai*....it is finished! Payment for sins of Gods people can only be justified via the propituatory sacrifice that occured *once* at the cross. The way you are using the term frank, is slightly "forensic". It is not meant to be disected in the fashion you have asserted. However, beginning at the cross and working outward, is (tongue in cheek) justified! You cannot seperate these passages from the foundational standard as they literally dismantle that which the faith has been built upon.

Another thing..........what you pose implies that men can be saved outside of the cross through these different justifying concepts. I emphatically state, men cannot be justified by works outside of ther justification that is *glued* to the cross of Calvary. This concept sounds Roman (as in RC) to me. The justification (probably a better word to use is sanctification)that Christians portray,*works* are a secondary issue and are not salvific. There are not more ways to "skin a cat" in regards to being saved; there is only one way!

Also: You imply that men are saved in different ways in the NT than they were saved in the OT???
There are 2 plans of salvation???
Men have only and always been saved by faith alone.....see Hebrews ch 11.

More to come,
Solo Christo,
Scott Bushey

 

[Daniel David]

Frank, I have been watching this for awhile. You, sir, have gravely mistaken. You flagrantly deny total depravity. I suppose God's promise of death to Adam when he sinned was superficial? Paul uses this to argue for T.D. also (Rom. 5 & 7). Also, I would like to point out something Jesus said:

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Question: why would they need forgiveness if they ignorantly did wrong (the worst kind by the way - killing Christ)?

If you wish to further discuss T.D. either bring up a past thread or start your own. You only believe one can lose their salvation because you believe they acheived it.

 

[Daniel David]

Did you not say that a person sins when he breaks God's law? A lost person is always sinning and always under God's wrath and judgment. There is nothing that isn't sin that a lost person does. So, even their ignorance is sin.

How do you get around Romans 5:12?

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Frank,
Let me say this........Do you not believe that the formula you defend is outside of historical Christian orthodoxy? Roman Catholic doctrine deny justification by faith alone. Salvation for the Roman Catholic is via works and not grace. They deny preservation of the saint. These items alone (IMO) set them outside of biblical Christianity. Your position is much the same. I wonder why you hold to such a belief. One can bend and twist the scriptures to form a straw man of whatever form they desire. History does not lend any credence to this method. Most all *new* ideas are now on the outside looking in.
Having said this, can you please present me with some reputable historical figuires who have abided under such beliefs? This is not to imply I follow men, but I do appreciate the historical figuires who have helped harmonize the church and have helped educate us in the faith. Can you provide me with a example?
Frank you write:
"You said this was a baptist forum. Then, you said ,i have denied historical Christian orthodoxy. How so? I have provided irrefutable Biblical evidence for all the positions I hold."

I respond: You have denied historical Christian lines of thought. You are in no way in step with any of the creeds from our historical roots. Yes, you present plenty of scripture, but you have constructed a straw man out of it.

Frank writes:
"In one of your statements, you said this is a baptist forum only. You further made a correct observation that i said I was a Christian. Are Christians not welcome on this Board?"

Scott responds:
"Frank, this is a baptist only forum. Were you not aware of this? This prerequisite for posting on this theological thread is stated in the threads requirements. That being, posters be of the Baptist Christian persuasion. What we have done here is nothing more than assigning this thread for Baptists alone. It is in no way meant to divide. It is much like a thread entitled, "Mens forum." Does this cause a division or schism in the church body or would sisters of our faith be offended by being (seemingly) excluded? I think not!

Frank, you continue:
"Scott, as far as salvation is concerned, the Bible teaches that ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. (SEE Hebrews 9:15-17). Those in the Old Testament had the promise of redemption THROUGH Christ who was to come.( Isaiah 53). The Old law was our school master to BRING US to Christ that we might be justified by faith."

I reply:
Chapter 11 of Hebrews is evidence that men are saved in the same fashion as in previous years; by faith alone, in Christ alone. The covenental change did not change the cause, that being God given faith. Your statement above, when contrasted to the drum which you've been beating, in light of it, it even becomes convoluted.

"There is therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus." Rom 8:1

"There must not be any abatement of the Protestant polemic against this perversion of the Gospel of Christ. If we once allow the notion of human satisfaction to intrude itself in our construction of justification or sanctification then we have polluted the river the streams whereof make glad the city of God. And the greatest perversion that it entails is that it robs the redeemer of the glory of His once-for-all accomplishment."
-Redemption Accompished and Applied, John Murray


In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 06, 2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[HankD]

RE: Total Depravity, what does it mean?

It cannot mean that we (in our unregenerate state) are cannibalistic mass murderers in actual practice. Is your unsaved neighbor such?

It can mean that there is the absolute potential for each and everyone of us to be so.

Our heavenly Father has given mankind "common grace" gifts (government, the restraining work of the Holy Spirit) to keep "the sin of the world" from the destruction
of our race.

HankD

[ April 06, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Frank,
Here is what you write in regards to how men are justified:
"Scott:
The Bible teaches that man is not justified by anything alone.
1. Man is justified by the blood of Christ.( Romans 5:9),
2. Man is Justified by faith.( Romans 5:1).
3. Man is justified by grace.( Romans 3:24).
4. Man is justified by God.( Romans 3:29).
5. Man is justified by Christ.( ICor.6:11).
6. Man is justified by the Spirit.( ICor.6:11).
7. Man is justified by works.( James 2:14,24).

Scott replies:
You incite that there are more ways men are justified other than the cross? Do me a favor Frank,
please provide me with what the term *justification* means to you? By what you have been saying, you are broadening the definition of the term and again, this is outside of biblical orthodoxy. Your misunderstanding of scriptural harmony is the cause.

PS......What occured at the cross 2000 years ago? What you essentially are saying is that whatever happened at Calvary, wasn't enough! Were we justified fully @ the cross or not?

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 06, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Frank,
You write:
"In Romans 5:1, being justified is in the Aorist, or POINT, TENSE,indicating the definite time at which each person, upon the EXERCISE of FAITH, was justified."

Scott inquires:
The exercising of this faith , you state * justifies *.
What exactly is the extent of this justification? Is it a justification that propitiates fully the sin of Gods people for all time or did the cross of Calvary only cover the sin for the moment?

PS...You did not reply to my question, " Prior to posting, did you not know that this forum was for Baptists only?"

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 07, 2002, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[DocCas]

Okay posters, listen up! Dr. Bob has been away for a week, and I have been gone for two days, but that is no excuse for breaking the posting rules of the Baptist Board. Note this forum is for BAPTISTS ONLY. If you are not a member of a Baptist church, and your profile so indicates, posting to this forum is agaist the Baptist Board rules. Please post only to those forums that are open to non Baptists.

Thomas Cassidy
Baptist Board Administrator

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Thank you Thomas,
I was beginning to wonder where Dr Griffin was? I appreciate the support. The attack on what I consider the central doctrine of Christianity, that being *justification by faith alone* was getting out of hand. The apparent broadening of the definition of justification, outside of historical Christian orthodoxy, is a present day evil and should not be received with gratitude but with resistance. I expect this case closed and the topic moot.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 07, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[hrhema]

I have read throughout this thread where people have spoken of where Jesus said no man can take them out of his hand. JESUS SAID NO MAN.
Jesus was stating that no man can cause another man to lose his salvation.

A scripture was referenced from the Book of Ezekiel so why don't we reference another from the same book where God told the prophet that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness that his righteousness will be remembered no more and that he would die in his sin. This is obvious that man can turn from being righteous to unrighteous.

I know some will say that this was under law and not grace but according to the word even though it was not the blood of Jesus that saved the people in those times it was still through faith.
Paul said that Abraham was saved by faith and his faith was imputed as righteousness.

How can we say that men under the old testament could start out serving God and then turn away from God and be cut off but under grace it cannot happen. God said he is the Lord and he changeth not. This would make God one that changes.

King Saul started out right with God then fell into rebellion and disobedience and was judged by God. The two sons of Aaron Nadab and Abihu had to be once right with God to have become priests but they were destroyed by fire. Look at Eli the High Priest. King Solomon. On and on goes the list of those who started out in righteousness and then turned to wickedness.

One problem is that people say it would be God taking salvation away but that is not true. God will never take salvation away from anyone. We by our continuing in deep sin rejects his commandments and we are the ones who throw away what God gave us.

Another problem is that people relegate works to sin and it is not so. Adultery and fornication and murder and stealing and lying and homosexuality etc are works of the flesh but are not the works the Apostles were talking about.
They were talking about following rituals and ordinances such as going to church. Singing in the choir. Playing a musical instrument. TEaching a class and on and on. These are works that people thinks saves them. I have heard people talk about how much money they gave to their church and they think they will go to Heaven for this reason. This is works not obeying the commandments of the Lord.

I am sorry but I read a book by a well known preacher who made the comment that if a man would accept Jesus as his personal Saviour and later on in life turn to homosexuality when he died he would go to Heaven. I don't believe this.
The bible makes it clear that sin will not inherit Heaven.

Paul said we have an advocate with the Father.
Why do we need Jesus as a daily advocate if we cannot fall away from Jesus?

The problem is man has created their own form of salvation because they want to continue to live in sin and to live any way they chose to and then they want to inherit Heaven when they die.
I am sorry but I cannot buy into this idea that Christians can go through life living in deep sin and when they die they will go to Heaven.

I have cornered so called Christians when they lie to me or try to cheat me or are dishonest in other ways and they tell me it doesn't matter how they act because they are eternally secure. They never ask for forgiveness and they say they don't ever have to ask forgiveness because they cannot lose their salvation.

Yes salvation is secured eternally because Jesus died and shed his blood and that was once and for all but a man can turn from his righteousnes to unrighteousness and die in his sins.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

hrhema,
Do you agree that the old covenant and the new covenant have differences? For the record, it has nothing to do with (the present day misnomer) being uder grace and not (Gods) law.

Do you see that men are saved by Gods grace alone? The cause is God, and the effect is salvation.

The word *righteous or righteousness* does not necessarily imply elect of God. It does however imply a piety; sometimes genuine, sometimes fake.

For example:
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Noah's son Ham is considered part of "this generation" yet ultimately he and his lineage are cursed for all time.

Jesus calls (in essence) the Pharisees *righteous*.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus dismantles righteousness in the way you have interpreted the scripture in Ezekiel.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The scripture posed from Ezekiel has much to do with elective power by decree and little to do with the work of men. This idea that men can facilitate or procur the attention of God by works is nothing more than semi-Pelagian and is not a biblical idea.

More to come,
In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

[hrhema]

The scripture that I used in Ezekiel states that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness to wickedness his righteousness will not be rememberd any more and he will die in his sin.

Righteousness is right standing with God so if a person leaves being right with God to living in deep sin all of his righteousness will be forgotten. This has not changed from Old Testament to New Testament.

For some reason people want to believe that those who found salvation under the law did so by obeying rituals. Paul made it clear that the sacrifices of animals only rolled their sins ahead. It never removed them. They found salvation through faith. Paul was clear on this.

Abraham was called a righteous man but his righteousness came because of his faith in God.

The only thing changed by grace is that we no longer have to obey the rituals of the law. Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill and he also said not one jot or tittle would pass away. Why? It was the ceremonial law nailed to his cross not moral law.

Ananias and Sapphira were saved Christians but were judged by God for lying to the Holy Ghost.
Demas forsook Christianity and turned back to the world. Alexander and Rufus the sons of Simon of Cyrene and who Paul at one time called great Christians turned to sin and Paul turned them over to Satan.

The man who committed incest in Corinth. Why did Paul turn him over to Satan so Satan could buffet him. So he could be saved at the Lord's Day.
That sounds like to me that his sin could cost
him his salvation. He was a believer at one time before he fell into sin.

In the Book of Revelation it states that a person who adds to or takes away from God's word will have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life. They must be saved to have their name there but God said their name could be removed.

Paul said there are those who try to recrucify the Lord and to put him to an open shame. He was talking to believers. He also spoke of a great falling away. How can anyone fall away if they never were saved.

Again the words of a dog returning to its vomit or a pig to wallowing in the mire is speaking
of Christians leaving serving Christ and returning to the world.

Peter called Christians who turned to sin as brute beasts and wandering stars reserved for eternal judgement. Paul said in Hebrews that we should tempt Christ as those who tempted in the wilderness and was destroyed of the serpents.

Jesus told the Laodiceans that they were lukewarm and he would spew or vomit them out of his mouth.
Do we honestly believe these will be saved.

The wise and foolish virgins. Both were examples of Christians and how about the ones that Jesus said he would tell them he never knew them though they performed miracles etc. These would be cast into outer darkness where there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

How about the Christians that are going to be deceived by the Anti-Christ and end up taking the mark. We know they will be lost and what about those who Paul said when they returned to the world would be worse off then if they never had known the truth.

I again cannot believe that a person that once walked with the Lord as a Christian and turns around and begins living a deep sinful life will inherit Heaven.

I know of people who served Christ for years who now are living an apostates life or who say they don't even believe God exists. They mock the blood of Jesus. Are you going to tell me these will be saved? God is going to allow people into Heaven who no longer believes in him?

This is why things were changed in certain Baptists groups. Now they say these people were never believers in the first place. Never had a experience with Christ.

Why the change? It is because they are doubting
this eternal security teaching. It is not working out any longer in their minds.

 

[ddavis]

hrhema said:
Ananias and Sapphira were saved Christians but were judged by God for lying to the Holy Ghost.
Demas forsook Christianity and turned back to the world. Alexander and Rufus the sons of Simon of Cyrene and who Paul at one time called great Christians turned to sin and Paul turned them over to Satan.
The man who committed incest in Corinth. Why did Paul turn him over to Satan so Satan could buffet him. So he could be saved at the Lord's Day.
That sounds like to me that his sin could cost
him his salvation. He was a believer at one time before he fell into sin.

Please show me one (1) place in the scripture that shows the Holy Spirit leaving a person after that person has come to Christ.

A person that has sinned has changed, NOT God he is still indwelling that person. Did not God know about that sin before he saved us???? What about "sealed until the day of redemption" Paul talks about it in Corinthians about the two natures.

If you can loose your salvation or give it back then you are stronger than God. Do you have to be re-baptized? Does the Holy Spirit re-indwell you?

What if you get saved, walk out side see a truck coming say a bad word, get killed. You just said a bad word that’s a sin, did you loose your salvation because you sinned and didn't have time to repent? NO. Ananias and Sapphira judged by God for lying to the Holy Ghost not for their salvation. 1 corinth. 11:30-32

I'm glad the Lord holds my salvation and not me, with my emotions, and humanistic ways, ups and downs, fears and trembling. He said it is finished and thank God for that.

[ April 10, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: ddavis ]

 

[DocCas]

Frank, you have been warned before about posting in the Baptist Only sections of the Baptist Board. Your profile does not indicate you are a Baptist. Therefore, please refrain from posting to the Baptist Only sections of the Baptist Board. Last warning.

Thomas Cassidy
Baptist Board Administrator

 

[Alex]

hrhema:

For some reason people want to believe that those who found salvation under the law did so by obeying rituals. Paul made it clear that the sacrifices of animals only rolled their sins ahead. It never removed them. They found salvation through faith. Paul was clear on this.

Abraham was called a righteous man but his righteousness came because of his faith in God.

The only thing changed by grace is that we no longer have to obey the rituals of the law. Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill and he also said not one jot or tittle would pass away. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think that you are confused about salvation in the OT as opposed to the NT.

The Laws in the OT could not be fullfiled by any person, thus there was no way to be "saved". God knew there was no way for a person to be saved by the laws and thus He sent Jesus as or savior. Jesus said that NNE knows the Father EXCEPT through Me. When Jesus died on the cross, ALL in the past who tried to keep the Laws and had "faith" in God, became SAVED by the blood of Christ and His death.

FAITH in the NT refers only to Jesus. When a person accepts Jesus, HE/SHE is saved FOREVER, even if the person falls back into sin, as many will do. Remember, All fall short of the glory of God. This means, that although we are saved in Christ, we will fail Him many times in our life BUT thank God we are not lost because of this.

God Bless..............Alex

 

[Scott_Bushey]

hrhema,
I see that you did not address the previous post I placed.

You write:
The scripture that I used in Ezekiel states that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness to wickedness his righteousness will not be rememberd any more and he will die in his sin.

Righteousness is right standing with God so if a person leaves being right with God to living in deep sin all of his righteousness will be forgotten. This has not changed from Old Testament to New Testament.

Scott responds:
As I have stated before, righteousness did not neccesarily imply salvation in every scriptural case. See my previous post. In response to what you pose above, Men will not undermine Gods elective power. Christ Himself said, "All that the father gives to me will come unto me, and I will lose none."

I add;
You are correct in stating that salvation is the same in the OT and the NT. Men were and are still saved by faith. See Heb ch 11.

You add:
Abraham was called a righteous man but his righteousness came because of his faith in God.

Scott responds:
No........Abraham was given faith and because of this he was deemed righteous. Not because of something he had worked up in himself.

hrhema,
I have no problem with what you state in regards to the moral law and the ceremonial.

You write:
"Ananias and Sapphira were saved Christians but were judged by God for lying to the Holy Ghost."

Whether or not Ananias and his wife were believers is another discussion. The past lots that have been cast are about even. Some say yea and some say nay.
Notice how scripture addresses Ananias.......

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

How about this verse......
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Scott asks:
Can satan fill the heart of a believer? How can this be possible? Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Or maybe they got their just deserts......

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep .

Same thing with Demas, The jury is still in session. Some believe that Demas only took leave of Paul. Possibly to take care of some *seculr* interests*. Look what Paul says about him..........

2 Tim 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world , and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God ? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Yet, Demas (Demetrius) is mentioned in scripture many times.........
Acts 19:24, 19:38, 3 John 1:22, Col 4:14, 2 Tim 4:10, Phil 1:24.

And Finally, in regards to your proposal that he apostasized:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

hrhema writes:
"He was a believer at one time before he fell into sin."

Are you implying that believers cannot fall into sin? There are scriptural references to *sinning* and apostasy. Can you explain the differences?

Your quote from Revelation:
"In the Book of Revelation it states that a person who adds to or takes away from God's word will have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life. They must be saved to have their name there but God said their name could be removed."

Believers would never do such a thing.....The passage I have previously presented from Ezekiel supports my claim. Show me an example from scripture where some one as guilty of such a dishonor? Exhortations in scripture do not neccesarily imply someone has fallen subject to the item warned against.
I encourage you to entertain some commentary on these verses in Revelation. You will find (as the greek shows) that you are mistaken in your understanding.

hrhema inquires:
"He also spoke of a great falling away. How can anyone fall away if they never were saved."

Scott responds:
In the 1400's, the church of Rome called what Luther did *Apostasy*. He was given the title anathema. Apostates; people who fall away from the faith, were never of the faith. Believers are kept...........

Matthew ch 13:17-23 explains the types of soil seed (the word of God) fell upon. Not all the seed fell and grew. Some of the instances state that the word was received (for a time).

See my paste of 1 John (above)

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

hrhema now suggests:
"Again the words of a dog returning to its vomit or a pig to wallowing in the mire is speaking
of Christians leaving serving Christ and returning to the world."

Scott states emphatically:
Sorry, "dogs" are never contrasted with believers. Jesus used the term *dog*, Matt 7:6, Matt 15:26. Pauls speaks in warning, Phil 3:2. John in Rev 22:15.....

You now write:
"Jesus told the Laodiceans that they were lukewarm and he would spew or vomit them out of his mouth.
Do we honestly believe these will be saved."

Your exegesis is incorrect........notice that the warning is to the church, thier lampstand is still in place!

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks . The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches : and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches .

These are churches! Hebrews ch 12 shows God *loving* His children by chastening them. Spewing does not necessarily imply *casting away*. They are His children! Would you cast away your child?

More to come,
Scott

[ April 11, 2002, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]