Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?

The purpose of me writing what I have been writing is to play the devils advocate because too many times people do not know how to defend what they believe and whether or not you understand this not all Baptists believe in Once Saved Always Saved so this does not remove anyone's rights for writing in this forum.

Matter of fact I have read different threads juston this topic that proves my point that different people believe different things because it is obvious that one of the writers believes he no longer sins.

No where have I stated that I do not believe believers fail and sin. I know we all fail and sin. Yet no one seems to want to deal with the whole thing I am pointing to and that is why would anyone believe that a person who served God for years can now turn from serving God back into the world, live in deep moral sin, never repent of that sin, never come back to Christ but when that person dies goes to Heaven.

The reason Paul did not fear losing his salvation is because he may have sinned but Paul remained a follower of Christ until his martyrdom. This is again the point I have been making all along.
I do not believe a person will be lost who continues to serve Christ but makes mistakes, may sin etc but has a repentant heart. It is the person who turns from serving Christ and lives the rest of their lives in sin. I cannot except that person will die and go to Heaven.

I am not going to write any more on this thread because no one is going to convince me that this will happen. I think that people use this belief to justify living in sin.

 

I did want to add one more thing and that is that the moderator of this forum Mr. Cassidy needs to make sure he is addressing the proper person before he issues a stern warning.

HRhema and Frank are two different people

 

I know that. I have access to your profiles and IP#s. To the best of my knowledge I have not addressed anything to you or made any statements about you.

 

hrhema,
Can I say something without intending to offend you, and if it does, you will have to forgive me? Do you understand what the word dialog means? May I help? There is an exchange of ideas between 2 or more people. You say something and the receiver of the information responds. Then you respond to what they have presented. What you have been doing is presenting a treatise. This is a *discussion* board........You have not answered my questions. The only thing I can glean from you is that you have an opinion and your opinion is immovable. You are not willing to learn, you want to teach. Teachers are well respected on this board. We have many a learned men here; many have doctorites. They discuss and respond. You do not however.

Ok, I have said my piece........lets move past this.

In response to your most recent post:
You are correct, there are many different views in the Christian world. Most all the views I have been exposed to have had the cross of Christ in the center. Those that were contrary, fall by the way.
I do not know where you have gotten the idea that the poster's here believe that a (so called) believer in Christ can live like Hell, yet be saved. No one here believes that.
Apostasy is apparently obvious within the pages of Holy writ. The prodigal son walked away, yet he was still a son. Can you say for sure how long *some* prodigals walk away for? I can't!
The elective decrees of God will never fail. The reformed man of God will defend the biblical doctrine known as *Perseverance of the Saint*; this being that those who persevere, yet stumble and sin, will be eternally secure, based upon the promises of Christ. Truth be known, unfortunately, believers will continue to sin until Heaven. The goal is to not, of course.

PS........Thomas was *not* addressing you. Even though both you and Frank seemed to be waving the same banner.

In HIM,
Saved by grace,
Scott

 

I want to clarify that I know we all sin and come short of the glory of God. I also am aware of prodigals. This is not the issue I have been addressing.

My whole problem is based on a book written by a prominent Baptist preacher in which he made statements such as if a Man comes to Christ and has a personal relationship with Christ and believes on him and accepts him then even after this he decided that he was homosexual and lived the lifestyle until he died he would never lose his salvation or if the same individual who came to Christ murdered someone and never repented then he too will enter Heaven based on his past relationship.

The prodigal son returned from his sinning and came back home. Yet why will no one answer the question as to what happens to the prodigal who never returns to serving Christ. Who spends his entire life away from Christ and living in deep immoral sin. Then dies. No repentance. Nothing.

 

hrhema,
This preacher you quote, if this in fact is what he has said, is sadly incorrect. He is a teacher of an illicit heart and will pay for the error of his ways. Christ Himself promises that the effeminate, as well as the homosexual, will have their share in the lake of fire.
I agree with that which you have stated (above).
However, the reformed see it in a different light. Prodigals *always* come back w/ repentance and fruit. Someone who leaves and never returns was never a prodigal. Prodigals are called (in the parable) "sons". Once a son, always a son. Nothing can remove sonship. I will always be Frank Bushey's son and he will always be my father. Christ died for the sins of His people. We are now called sons of God. Christ Himself promises, "I will lose none".
The man you have described, that man perishes...........as it states in 1st John, ".......he was never of us".

In Him,
Scott

[ April 16, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

I agree that no one can "lose" his/her salvation, but anyone can willfully reject salvation after having received it.

 

Michael,
So if God saves, by His power alone, the same power that cast the Heavens into their place, are you implying that the creation can undermine the creators elective power and defuse the process?

In HIM,
Scott

[ April 16, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Scott,

I am saying that God endowed humans with free will; that God does not force anyone to come to Him; that having come to Him, He does not force anyone to stay; that He does not forceably restrain anyone from coming to Him. The invitation is to all, the atonement was for all, and all may come and drink of the Water of Life freely.

The god of Calvinism is not the God of our Savior Jesus Christ.

 

"He does not force anyone to stay;"

I don't know, sounds pretty secure to me.....

Peace, Gary

 

The Arminian Baptists say "He who endures to the end shall be saved"; the Calvinists say "He who is saved shall endure to the end."

We have salvation and everlasting life if we do not willfully turn our backs on these gifts and reject them. That is the message of the Bible.

 

Michael,
Here is the error...........Both thoughts are present in scripture. It all depends on who (if you will) holds the ball when the game began.
Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God......". Nothing happens without the essential cause. The effect, men are saved. The error of most Arminians is seeing these two items either in the wrong order or separate. They are not separate and the order begins in Gen 1:1.
The elective decree's of God are based alone on His purpose. God does not save for any other reason than this; His will alone. If, In the beginning God, did not desire to save men, all would perish. Men would not have had any say in this reaction would they Michael? No, the whole part and parcel, straight to HELL. Men do not save them self. As you have seen in my posts above, men who walk away, were never truly HIS.

In HIM,
Held solely by His will,
Scott

[ April 17, 2002, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Michael,
This thought is accurate! Those who believe will be saved, those that do not, will perish. Them that receive, will be saved, those who do not, perish. Unless ye repent, you will all likewise perish....repent and be saved. Those who turn their backs and walk away, will be cast into eternal punishment with the devil and his cronies.

God promises otherwise in regards to His people!

Gods word promises, "Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

I believe that salvation is eternal in the fact that the price was paid through the Blood of Jesus. I believe that God has given man a free will to choose to serve him or not serve him.
I don't believe a person will lose their salvation just because they fail, make mistakes, commits a sin etc with a repentant heart. I also believe that no man can take another persons salvation away from them, yet what happened to the Christians who were brought before Rome and when their life was threatened with martyrdom they denounced Christ. Are we going to say they were still saved? If we do say this then how do we justify the fact that during the end time when
the Anti-Christ wars against the Saints and prevails and many accept the mark the Bible says they will be lost. This is why I have a hard time believing eternal security the way many teach it.

I do believe people get cold and people stray but the majority of them still have a small flame that Jesus said he will not quench. I believe God see the hearts of these people and knows the time of weakness in their hearts but the ones that backslide back into the world and into deep sin with no thought of God and does not have a repentant heart will be lost.

Paul wrote the following:

But some of these branches from Abraham's trees, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree. But you must be careful
not to brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember, you are just a branch, not the root.
Well, you may say, those brancehs were broken off to make room for me.
Yes, but remember those branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you are there because you do believe. Don't think highly of yourself, but FEAR WHAT COULD HAPPEN. FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE BRANCHES HE PUT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE, HE WON'T SPARE YOU EITHER.
NOTICE HOW GOD IS BOTH KIND AND SEVERE. HE IS SEVERE TO THOSE WHO DISOBEYED BUT KIND TO YOU AS YOU CONTINUE TO TRUST IN HIS KINDNESS. BUT IF YOU STOP TRUSTING, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.
Romans 11:17-22.

This writing by Paul makes it very clear that these Roman believers or the Gentile believers if they quit trusting in God or Christ they would be cut off. This does not sound like Once Saved Always Saved to me in the light that people talk about. These were believers Paul was talking to and he said to these believers that they needed to fear what could happen to them if they stopped believing.

James wrote: My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that SINNER FROM DEATH and bring about the forgiveness of many sins. The death James speaks of is spiritual death not physical death.

Peter wrote speaking of people who become false teachers that they wandered off the right road to the road of sin and it would have been better if they had never known the right way to live than to know it and then reject the holy commandments that were given them. If the wandering held no consequences then why did Peter state it would have been better if they had never heard the gospel.

The Apostle John wrote in 1 John 1 that if you do the will of God you will live forever. To me it would seem that if you did not the will of God you would not live forever and what was the will of God showing we belonged to him? John wrote that we obey his commandments.

I hear the scripture used by John that states"These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us, otherwise they would have stayed with us," but if you read the first part of the scripture John was calling these people Anti-Christ and later he said they were Anti-Christ because they denied the Father and the son. They never believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. They never accepted Jesus.
They came to meetings to cause trouble. Peter in his writings spoke of the same group of people.
John was not addressing people who drift away.
John also went on to say, "so you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning, IF YOU DO, you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father, and in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us. I think this makes it clear that if we are in fellowship with the Father and son we have eternal life but if not we don't.

I also know that people use what John stated that God's son holds them securely and the evil one cannot get to them to teach eternal security but John was teaching that if we are in Jesus he holds us securely. If we do not live a life of sin he holds us securely.

In 2 John he wrote: "For if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ, you will not have fellowship with God. But if you continue in the teaching of Christ, then you will have fellowship with both the Father and the son which coincides with his teaching in 1 John that this fellowship gives us eternal life. So again if we are not in fellowship with God we do not have eternal life.

We say that God who cut off the true vine Israel for turning away from him and the God who punished angels for turning away from him is not going to do the same to believers who turn away from him. The Bible say he is the Lord and he changeth not.

Jesus in the Book of Revelations said that if anyone adds to or takes away from the prophecy of the Book of Revelation that person will lose their share in the tree of life and the City of God. He was talking to believers.

When Jesus said that no man could remove believers out of his hand it is simple to understand that he was stating that no outside force could take away a believer's salvation. Not man, woman, child, teenager, governments, or Satan himself. No outside force could remove them. Yet, I believe that if a believer turns and rejects Christ and turns back to a unrepentant life of sin he removes himself from Jesus' protection. It isn't God taking away the person's salvation it is that person rejecting God's salvation. God would not be the culprit but the person would cause their own loss of salvation.

As far as sonship goes a son can be punished by a Father. It does not keep him from being a son.
Under the law if a son was rebellious the Father had to stone him to death. The father became the judge, the jury and the executioner. Did this punishment do away with the fact that this was his son? No! The punishment was death. So if God the Father because of one of his sons rebellion against him would cast him into Hell which is the second death, this would not remove his sonship.

I know people will rise up and say that their loving God would not send one of his children to Hell but that is bordering on the same dogma that people say that their loving God would never send anyone to a Hell to try and dismiss any belief in eternal punishment. Paul made it clear that we the clay have no right to argue with God about what God chooses to do. That we have no rights to question if God would openly choose one over the other. God in his sovereignty can do as he chooses and man can say it is unfair all he wants to but it changes nothing.

 

hrhema writes:
yet what happened to the Christians who were brought before Rome and when their life was threatened with martyrdom they denounced Christ. Are we going to say they were still saved?

Scott replies:
What about Peter's denial?

You add:
I do believe people get cold and people stray but the majority of them still have a small flame that Jesus said he will not quench.

Scott responds:
I do not know of any reference to Christ "quenching any flame"
Jesus stated the opposite actually. As previously posted, "No one can remove them from my hand...I will lose none of them"

hrhema writes:
I believe God see the hearts of these people and knows the time of weakness in their hearts but the ones that backslide back into the world and into deep sin with no thought of God and does not have a repentant heart will be lost.

Scott states:
Scripture shows that the heart is deceitful above all things. God does not respond to mens deceitful hearts in the manner you have described. The elective decree is just that, *a decree*. The will of God and His holy decrees are not based upon the creations ideas or ways. All things are created for Gods purpose alone!
As previously described, those that fall away, were never believers in a salvific way. See the parable of the soils, you will see the responses to the different type of seeds that fell.

You add:
I hear the scripture used by John that states"These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us, otherwise they would have stayed with us," but if you read the first part of the scripture John was calling these people Anti-Christ and later he said they were Anti-Christ because they denied the Father and the son. They never believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. They never accepted Jesus.

Scott responds:
This is the whole reformed premise.........we agree. This is the point. Those who fail to persevere, they were never elect, never true disciples, never true believers. Christ promises to finish the work He has begun? Who am I to argue with Christ?

hrhema writes:
I also know that people use what John stated that God's son holds them securely and the evil one cannot get to them to teach eternal security but John was teaching that if we are in Jesus he holds us securely. If we do not live a life of sin he holds us securely.

Scott asks:
How many sins are ok? You imply that "anyone who lives a life of sin...". How many are ok? I sinned a bunch today! I'm sorry I did, but needless to say, I did. 1 John 1:9
So, we hold ourselves up? Thats what you propose.
It is us, who holds ourselves in the faith. We save ourself, based upon what we do. This is semi pelagian nonsense and is contra-biblical.

Your fault is in not being able to harmonize the dualistic truths of scripture. Historic, biblical orthodoxy of the Christian faith has always embraced just the opposite of what you incite. It is error in its fullest. It denies the centrality of the Christian faith, that being, justification by faith alone.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 17, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Scott please do not say that what you believe is central to the Christian faith. It is central to the teaching of Calvinism. There are other doctrines and teachings who do not accept or believe in the teachings of Calvinism. You may believe these teachings are correct. Many Baptist adhere to them and many do not. Calvinism is the only doctrine that adheres to and accepts Once Saved Always Saved.

 

Hrhema,
Your understanding of how the Calvinist views *persevering* is in no way, solely related to the teachings of John Calvin; it is however, solely biblical. I reiterate, your error is in harmonizing the two truths that compile Gods holy word on the subject.
I can present an exhaustive list that would take hours to compile with men who have believed in the doctrine of *justification* by faith alone. You however, will be hard pressed to facilitate a list (at all) with historic saints who believe what you do.

What you have essentially implied is that Christ's death at Calvary saved no one. The propitiatory cross of Jesus propitiates nothing unless the believer perseveres, when in fact we all sin continuously. What do you think occured @ Calvary? Jesus cried out *tetelestai*. What do you think He meant when He said, "It is finished".

In HIM,
Scott

 

Graceforever,
Call me silly, but I am not able to dicipher what you posted.

Peter denied the Lord! 3 times.

In HIM,
Scott

 

Those who hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine seem to twist the beliefs of those who do not agree.

I do not believe a person can lose their salvation
depending on how much they sin. I am fully aware that everyone is a sinner but believers are sinners saved by grace. I also know we do not earn or merit Heaven by works. I also do not believe that a person can take away another persons salvation.

When John 10 is quoted Jesus said no man can remove his sheep. Jesus was talking about an outside force. In John 17 where Jesus said he had not lost any he was speaking of his apostles.
Not believers in the future.

Again the whole problem that I have is that the teaching says that a person cannot walk away from Christ. I am sorry I don't believe that. I don't believe God will force anyone to serve him.
This goes against the teachings of a man having a free will.

I believe the only thing that can cost a person their soul is a conscious decision to reject Christ and go back into the world. Never serve him again. Live in total sin and depravity and die this way.

There is no one day I am saved and the next day I am lost because I fail and make mistakes etc.
I have never believed that. I believe a true believer will be convicted of sin and repent.
I do not believe in perfection either. Won't happen.

That is the only difference in my beliefs from everyone elses. I do not accept that God is going to force a person who may have once served him to go to Heaven if that person decides to reject the Blood of Jesus. I believe this is what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of someone re-crucifying Christ and putting him to an open shame. Trampling the Blood of Christ. This is not the person who makes mistakes, commits sin but keeps right on going on with Christ but the believer who makes the conscious decision I am not going to serve him and becomes depraved in their thinking.