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Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?
- Thread starter wordsworth
- Start date
Year 2002: Hey brather Dave, I'd like to give you this gift. I know you don't deserve it but I'd want to give it to you anyway.
Year 2003: Hey brother Dave, you know that gift I gave you that you didn't deserve anyway. Well your still not worthy of it and I'd like to take it back. Sorry I shouldn't have given it to you in the first place.
I don't think any of us being evil would do something like this. And I am to believe that God would.
Come on. You didn't deseve it when He gave it to you and guess what you still don't deserve it. And you never will deserve it.
Hey maybe we should change the scriptures around a little bit.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith, and also of yourselves. It is the gift of God that thereafter you must earn. Also of works, so that any may boast."
Ummm!???
If we can be saved by grace and then lost by works or the lack therof, then I guess I'll see you all in hell.
Because none will be saved.
Year 2003: Hey brother Dave, you know that gift I gave you that you didn't deserve anyway. Well your still not worthy of it and I'd like to take it back. Sorry I shouldn't have given it to you in the first place.
I don't think any of us being evil would do something like this. And I am to believe that God would.
Come on. You didn't deseve it when He gave it to you and guess what you still don't deserve it. And you never will deserve it.
Hey maybe we should change the scriptures around a little bit.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith, and also of yourselves. It is the gift of God that thereafter you must earn. Also of works, so that any may boast."
Ummm!???
If we can be saved by grace and then lost by works or the lack therof, then I guess I'll see you all in hell.
Because none will be saved.
DocCas
New Member
Time for the definitive answer. 
The same God who saves us by His grace according to our faith also keeps us. 1 Peter 1:5.
If I say "I can lose my salvation." I am, in effect, saying I have not given my life (etermal) to Christ, but am still clinging to it with my own strength. After all, it is impossible to lose something you don't have! If you still have it you have not entrusted it to Christ! But, if you have entrusted it to Christ, you no longer have it, and thus cannot lose it!
So, we see, logically, those who can lose it, don't have it, and those who can't lose it, have it!
The same God who saves us by His grace according to our faith also keeps us. 1 Peter 1:5.
If I say "I can lose my salvation." I am, in effect, saying I have not given my life (etermal) to Christ, but am still clinging to it with my own strength. After all, it is impossible to lose something you don't have! If you still have it you have not entrusted it to Christ! But, if you have entrusted it to Christ, you no longer have it, and thus cannot lose it!
So, we see, logically, those who can lose it, don't have it, and those who can't lose it, have it!
I do believe Paul also addressed this. When he said(me translation here) does this mean we can/ should sin even more? What did he say? No, we don't sin just because. But as christians we know that if we do sin, we do not have to worry about being thrown out of God's family.
1John1:9 is written to christians for when they do sin. He assumes we as christians are going to sin. So what sin would be bad enough to loose salvation? And how do we know which? The bible doesn't say we can or will loose salvation, for those in Christ Jesus there is no more condemnation.(it's in there, don't have the reference)
Believeing that we loose salvation says God's gift of grace, isn't a gift, but that we must earn it, and that we must work to keep it.
Now biblically speaking, that makes no sence to me.
I'll go with what scripture says.
I believe there have been several scripture given that teach us you can not loose salvation.
Notice, you said give back a gift. Not loose it, or have it taken away. If you choose to give away salvation, you were never saved. Jesus doesn't loose(by your choice or God's, not that God changes His mind) anyone God has given to Him.
Notice, you said give back a gift. Not loose it, or have it taken away. If you choose to give away salvation, you were never saved. Jesus doesn't loose(by your choice or God's, not that God changes His mind) anyone God has given to Him.
Frank;the verses that you have given to support your position fail miserably.Not one single verse has to do with the loss of one's salvation.Rom.3:10-12 is a quote from Psa.14:1-3 which simply makes the point that all people with-out exception are not righteous.1Tim.1:18-19 has to do with Paul's charge to Timothy concerning false teachers mentioned in vs.3.1Tim.4:1-4 again deals with the issue of false teachers.2Tim.2:17-18 has to do with false teachings concerning the resurrection.2Tim.4:10 gives no indication that Demas ever was a true believer.2Peter 2:19-22 again has to do with false teachers.Lk.15:1-32 all deal with the same message and that is that God is vitally concerned with the repentance of sinners.Rev.2:10 here again as with all the previous passages you have failed to prove your position because not one of these verses say one word about the loss of salvation.You are just taking verses out of context and reading into them what you want them to say.You told Katie that she had failed to prove her position with scripture yet you have failed miserably to prove your position.To say that one can loose their salvation is tantamount to saying that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient.
wordsworth
New Member
I think the discussion may be digressing a bit from its original focus. If you know you are saved, great! Praise God! The issue is: should we as Baptist continue to dogmatically wave the banner of once saved always saved in the face of those that take all the right external "steps" that we deem as evidence of someone being saved? Again, how can I say to little John that just walked the aisle and quoted the sinner's prayer that he IS saved forever... and since grace abounds more, the sins that he will commit will never be acknowledged by God again.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Hey boarders,
I agree with wordsworth. I have been lurking on this thread, it has become unprofitable. It just goes to show how when one does not balance out truths of scripture and harmonize the ideas, and instead leans into one line of thought, creating a pet doctrine, forgetting about the other truths, hyper-mentality or a sub orthodox view entails!
One of the most amazing pieces of scripture is found in Genesis chapter 1.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Notice how everything started........"In the beginning GOD....". (My emphasis added). When men approach God, when men pray, when men THINK about God and His ways, they must start with this premise, "In the beginning God.....". It starts and ends with the God JEHOVAH. Salvation is by and through God alone.
There are many dualities in scripture. As mentioned above, not harmonizing these ideas is dangerous. For example, in the idea of the elective decree, men are not puppets, they must receive, believe, repent.....yet they cannot unless God allows, gives repentance, though God repents not. He does not repent for men.(The posed idea that God repented in Gen 6:6 is viewed erroneously.) Men that refuse to repent will perish for their sin. They will be solely held responsible for their rebellion, not God.
What about the doctrine of irresistable grace. How in the world can men resist the power of God? Yhis thought is rediculous. Scripture shows that nothing can stay the hand of the Lord, yet dually, scripture also shows men who "resist the Holy Spirit" (see Acts 7:51, Matt 23:37).
Preservation of the saint is another item. Christ Himself proclaims that He will lose none that the Father gives Him and all that the Father gives Him WILL come to Him. However, how does one resolve the contrast of scripture warning of apostasy. Elective decree's were implemented prior to the foundation of the world, nothing can divert the power of God in election. Yet we are admonished and exhorted to be cautious of falling away. These two sided truths are present....one cannot deny them. Looking at these ideas outside of harmonious truth is a mistake.
Frank writes:
"Gifts maybe returned. If someone gives me a gift I do not want. I may return it."
Scott responds:
I do not agree though with this line of thinking as it places God behind men in regards to the salvific miracle. Men cannot dismantle the decree of God. God does not wait, wringing his hands, wondering if Heaven will be empty. One who has been gifted will not want to ever resend the gift of eternal life, as is stated in the book of Ezekiel, their hearts have been washed, changed.
Frank,
What would be the saving grace in your line of thought? Is saving grace only accentuated and actuated by the perseverance of men? And if this be the case, who is saving who? Where would God draw the line? Would it be, men who turn away...who walk away from the faith or a single sin? These men who have turned (Demas) are men whom the apostle says "were never of us".
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Final thoughts.........
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Cor 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Cor 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2 Cor 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2 Cor 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2 Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2 Cor 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2 Cor 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
In HIS GRIP.......
Scott Bushey
I agree with wordsworth. I have been lurking on this thread, it has become unprofitable. It just goes to show how when one does not balance out truths of scripture and harmonize the ideas, and instead leans into one line of thought, creating a pet doctrine, forgetting about the other truths, hyper-mentality or a sub orthodox view entails!
One of the most amazing pieces of scripture is found in Genesis chapter 1.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Notice how everything started........"In the beginning GOD....". (My emphasis added). When men approach God, when men pray, when men THINK about God and His ways, they must start with this premise, "In the beginning God.....". It starts and ends with the God JEHOVAH. Salvation is by and through God alone.
There are many dualities in scripture. As mentioned above, not harmonizing these ideas is dangerous. For example, in the idea of the elective decree, men are not puppets, they must receive, believe, repent.....yet they cannot unless God allows, gives repentance, though God repents not. He does not repent for men.(The posed idea that God repented in Gen 6:6 is viewed erroneously.) Men that refuse to repent will perish for their sin. They will be solely held responsible for their rebellion, not God.
What about the doctrine of irresistable grace. How in the world can men resist the power of God? Yhis thought is rediculous. Scripture shows that nothing can stay the hand of the Lord, yet dually, scripture also shows men who "resist the Holy Spirit" (see Acts 7:51, Matt 23:37).
Preservation of the saint is another item. Christ Himself proclaims that He will lose none that the Father gives Him and all that the Father gives Him WILL come to Him. However, how does one resolve the contrast of scripture warning of apostasy. Elective decree's were implemented prior to the foundation of the world, nothing can divert the power of God in election. Yet we are admonished and exhorted to be cautious of falling away. These two sided truths are present....one cannot deny them. Looking at these ideas outside of harmonious truth is a mistake.
Frank writes:
"Gifts maybe returned. If someone gives me a gift I do not want. I may return it."
Scott responds:
I do not agree though with this line of thinking as it places God behind men in regards to the salvific miracle. Men cannot dismantle the decree of God. God does not wait, wringing his hands, wondering if Heaven will be empty. One who has been gifted will not want to ever resend the gift of eternal life, as is stated in the book of Ezekiel, their hearts have been washed, changed.
Frank,
What would be the saving grace in your line of thought? Is saving grace only accentuated and actuated by the perseverance of men? And if this be the case, who is saving who? Where would God draw the line? Would it be, men who turn away...who walk away from the faith or a single sin? These men who have turned (Demas) are men whom the apostle says "were never of us".
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Final thoughts.........
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Cor 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Cor 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2 Cor 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2 Cor 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2 Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2 Cor 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2 Cor 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
In HIS GRIP.......
Scott Bushey
Chris Temple
New Member
Exactly right. Most non-Calvinists hold to OSAS, despite its contradiction to their own theology, for unless God predestines, calls, justifies and glorifes (Romans 8:30) salvation cannot be secure.
Chris Temple
New Member
Wonderfully said, Scott.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Frank,
What you pose, seems to deny one of the most central orthodox components of the Christian faith "justification by faith alone". I do not believe it needs to be said that God saves, not man. Do you agree? Do you also agree that it is not by works, but of grace? Eph 2:8,9 speak of a gift........do you believe the gift to be faith or grace? Romans 11 speak of grace and works, and not in the same breath..........
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Where does our responsibility begin and end? The book of Ezekiel states that men who have been regenerated of God *WILL* have fruit resembling washing from the water of life.
Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezek 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:
In HIS grip,
Scott Bushey
What you pose, seems to deny one of the most central orthodox components of the Christian faith "justification by faith alone". I do not believe it needs to be said that God saves, not man. Do you agree? Do you also agree that it is not by works, but of grace? Eph 2:8,9 speak of a gift........do you believe the gift to be faith or grace? Romans 11 speak of grace and works, and not in the same breath..........
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Where does our responsibility begin and end? The book of Ezekiel states that men who have been regenerated of God *WILL* have fruit resembling washing from the water of life.
Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezek 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:
In HIS grip,
Scott Bushey
Brian Collins
New Member
There is plenty of scripture to support the doctrine that, once a man is forgiven, he can never be unforgiven.
According to Romans 4:6-8, sin is no longer imputed to us.
Rom 4:3-8
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Because God held Christ accountable for our sins (2 Cor. 5:21) we can no longer be held accountable for them. Moreover, according to Romans 6:1-11, if we have died to sin once, we can no more die to sin, any more than Christ can die again.
According to Hebrews 10:1-18, we are purged from a conscience of sins.
Heb 10:1-2
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Our sacrifice of Christ will never be offered again, because once sufficed.
Moreover, we are perfected in Christ and can be no less just POSITIONALLY than Christ.
Heb 10:10-14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Notice in v10 that we are sanctified, and then notice in v14 that those who are sanctified (us) are perfected forever.
By the way, according to Hebrews 6, if we could be lost again, we could never again be saved.
I find it odd indeed that most people who believe in losing salvation never think the sins THEY commit are capable of draining their salvation from them. I also notice they don't believe Hebrews 6 like they say they do - because most of them think a man can be saved again and again.
Whoever said in this thread that a gift can be returned should consider this: if someone gives you a heart transplant as a gift, how would you give that back? How do you give perfection back?
If you are truly born again, you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. How do you venture to escape that? How do you think to have the power to resurrect yourself? Christ alone (not Satan, mind you) has the power of resurrection.
If His sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him, and no man shall pluck them out of His hand, and His Father is greater than He, and no man plucketh them out of His Father's hand, do we think we are some breed of more powerful men? Does Satan have more power than Christ? (Matthew 28:18, Psalm 62:11, Psalm 147:5)
Just a few thoughts for your consideration.
--Brian C.
According to Romans 4:6-8, sin is no longer imputed to us.
Rom 4:3-8
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Because God held Christ accountable for our sins (2 Cor. 5:21) we can no longer be held accountable for them. Moreover, according to Romans 6:1-11, if we have died to sin once, we can no more die to sin, any more than Christ can die again.
According to Hebrews 10:1-18, we are purged from a conscience of sins.
Heb 10:1-2
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Our sacrifice of Christ will never be offered again, because once sufficed.
Moreover, we are perfected in Christ and can be no less just POSITIONALLY than Christ.
Heb 10:10-14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Notice in v10 that we are sanctified, and then notice in v14 that those who are sanctified (us) are perfected forever.
By the way, according to Hebrews 6, if we could be lost again, we could never again be saved.
I find it odd indeed that most people who believe in losing salvation never think the sins THEY commit are capable of draining their salvation from them. I also notice they don't believe Hebrews 6 like they say they do - because most of them think a man can be saved again and again.
Whoever said in this thread that a gift can be returned should consider this: if someone gives you a heart transplant as a gift, how would you give that back? How do you give perfection back?
If you are truly born again, you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. How do you venture to escape that? How do you think to have the power to resurrect yourself? Christ alone (not Satan, mind you) has the power of resurrection.
If His sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him, and no man shall pluck them out of His hand, and His Father is greater than He, and no man plucketh them out of His Father's hand, do we think we are some breed of more powerful men? Does Satan have more power than Christ? (Matthew 28:18, Psalm 62:11, Psalm 147:5)
Just a few thoughts for your consideration.
--Brian C.
wordsworth
New Member
Frank,
You have presented a formidable biblical case for your position, and you have choked this board full of Scriptural support, but I'm afraid all your labor is in vain and lost to cyberspace as you stated.
I'm still waiting for someone to rise to my original question about how to address the "backslidden" Christian, if, in fact, he should be addressed at all. Where are all the pastors?
I think, like Scott, some people get so caught up in pet doctrines that Scripture is bound and quenched in sundry places. I also think that many people make the mistake of assigning human response and experience to God, who can do anything He wants to do. This has been done here, accept for the "sheep" point, through numerous anecdotes and metaphors to support a viewpoint, rather than using Scripture. Think about it, even if you or I were headed straight to hell, shouldn't we still honor, love, and live for Christ, simply because He is WORTHY!? Should not this be our mindset?
You have presented a formidable biblical case for your position, and you have choked this board full of Scriptural support, but I'm afraid all your labor is in vain and lost to cyberspace as you stated.
I'm still waiting for someone to rise to my original question about how to address the "backslidden" Christian, if, in fact, he should be addressed at all. Where are all the pastors?
I think, like Scott, some people get so caught up in pet doctrines that Scripture is bound and quenched in sundry places. I also think that many people make the mistake of assigning human response and experience to God, who can do anything He wants to do. This has been done here, accept for the "sheep" point, through numerous anecdotes and metaphors to support a viewpoint, rather than using Scripture. Think about it, even if you or I were headed straight to hell, shouldn't we still honor, love, and live for Christ, simply because He is WORTHY!? Should not this be our mindset?
wordsworth
New Member
Katie...question for you.
You raised an interesting point when you said:
Well, how many times can someone who is forever saved repent of sins, and how many times can someone's heart be cleansed? Do you have the number? Nay, why would they? If once saved always saved were a dogmatic truth, I John 1:9 would seem to be a verse to implore of God only once, at one's initial salvation. Once saved always saved seems to me to negate the need for future repentances and future cleansings, since security is rock solid. So, my question: Why do you say God "ASSUMES" we will sin, and when you do sin you make convenient use of I John 1:9, why the multiple repentances?
Someone who was firm in their once saved always saved position would only repent once and then rest upon God's "assumption" that the saved one will continue to sin; further repentance is done away with by the false sense of security.
Also, what do you, who are self-proclaimed "sheep" of the Father, do with I John 3:6 when you sin and tell others they WILL sin also? I thought those who are saved and are being saved have overcome the bondage of sin in Christ.
In Christ
You raised an interesting point when you said:
I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I believe your position is that your salvation is secure, even though you may sin-- correct? You would agree that the greater the sin, the greater the grace-- hence the greater the salvation.
Well, how many times can someone who is forever saved repent of sins, and how many times can someone's heart be cleansed? Do you have the number? Nay, why would they? If once saved always saved were a dogmatic truth, I John 1:9 would seem to be a verse to implore of God only once, at one's initial salvation. Once saved always saved seems to me to negate the need for future repentances and future cleansings, since security is rock solid. So, my question: Why do you say God "ASSUMES" we will sin, and when you do sin you make convenient use of I John 1:9, why the multiple repentances?
Someone who was firm in their once saved always saved position would only repent once and then rest upon God's "assumption" that the saved one will continue to sin; further repentance is done away with by the false sense of security.
Also, what do you, who are self-proclaimed "sheep" of the Father, do with I John 3:6 when you sin and tell others they WILL sin also? I thought those who are saved and are being saved have overcome the bondage of sin in Christ.
In Christ
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Frank,
You write:
"The text itself says it is through faith one receives salvation ( The gift).( Romans 6:23, Acts 2:38).
God does save. He saves us by his unmerited favor which is received by the faith men have in his power to save.( Romans 1:16,17)."
Scott responds:
I assume by your post that you believe that the faith men use to approach God in the miracle of salvation is something that men generate? It is because of this element God saves men? This contradicts Eph 2:8,9.....this is a work. Men doing something to gain Gods favor....God bases His merit because of mens capacity of faith in Him to save them. How does this fit into the scope of the elective decree? God saves men because He see's them reacting and choosing Him?
Frank, with all due respect, this type of theology is getting a bit *fuzzy*.......this mentality also denies total depravity. You imply men are able to approach God without first being regenerated and cleansed? What do you think about the Ezekeiel passage I posted? What do you think Christ meant when He stated that men must be "born from above (*anothen* in the greek)" before they may enter the kingdom of Heaven?
"Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
"1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us."
In HIS grip,
Scott Bushey
You write:
"The text itself says it is through faith one receives salvation ( The gift).( Romans 6:23, Acts 2:38).
God does save. He saves us by his unmerited favor which is received by the faith men have in his power to save.( Romans 1:16,17)."
Scott responds:
I assume by your post that you believe that the faith men use to approach God in the miracle of salvation is something that men generate? It is because of this element God saves men? This contradicts Eph 2:8,9.....this is a work. Men doing something to gain Gods favor....God bases His merit because of mens capacity of faith in Him to save them. How does this fit into the scope of the elective decree? God saves men because He see's them reacting and choosing Him?
Frank, with all due respect, this type of theology is getting a bit *fuzzy*.......this mentality also denies total depravity. You imply men are able to approach God without first being regenerated and cleansed? What do you think about the Ezekeiel passage I posted? What do you think Christ meant when He stated that men must be "born from above (*anothen* in the greek)" before they may enter the kingdom of Heaven?
"Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
"1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us."
In HIS grip,
Scott Bushey