Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?

[Scott_Bushey]

Eaglelives911,
I must tell you, you are not understanding what Scott has been implying. No one is saying that a person who falls into gross sin and remains there will spend eternity with God in Heaven. What Scott and myself (in the earlier posts) have said is that Gods elect will persevere. The elect of God will (unfortunately) sin. Some may be grave like King David or Peter, but like the prodigal, they will (eventually) repent and return to the fold. They will not stay in the mud, like the pig or dog who returns to it's vomit. The elect WILL repent and return. It is God who promises. It is God who holds the elect. It is Christ who perseveres, not the elect.

The salvation of the elect is based not upon the sin, it is based upon the sin that was paid for by Christ. If it was EVER based upon the sin or the sinner, we would all end up in Hell.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

* Contrast this prayer of Jesus with what you are infering.............

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.]John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

* Eagledare911,
What do you think is the extent of the statement, "glorified in them" is?

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Eagledare911,
* Look at the language here. Christ states that these men are NOT of the world, in the same way, He is not of the world......What can this mean?

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Eagledare911,
* Christ implies that His disciples have a common attribute of God; The Glory fom on high. This implication shows that one who posseses, are ONE with God.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 25, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Scott, it seems to me that no matter what I post, we aren't communicating and are not on the same wave length. I see no point in arguing with you. We would probably differ on degrees of sin, as well.

EagleLives911, I think you assume a little too much. I do understand what you are saying. I know people who hold these views. They have no trouble producing "examples" of people who were "saved", active in church, witnesses, spoke in tongues, etc. What they miss and possibly what you are missing is that we must evaluate our observations in light of scripture rather than evaluating scripture in light of our experiences.

You have STILL shown me no Biblical proof that once a person is saved, they are always saved, no matter what. And that they can't remove themselves from the Father's Hand. Only you have provided YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures.

To believe in eternal security requires very little interpretation. As Scott Bushey posts above, all you have to do is read it in the normal sense. You must add to scripture to read that you can "pluck yourself from God's hand". The implication which you don't seem to see is that if you can recant genuine salvation then you, not God, are sovereign over your salvation.

I have tried to give you examples of what I am talking about, but it seems to zoom off somewhere, no offense.

None taken. However, I am not just zooming off. I am trying to evaluate the situations you describe in light of scripture. For instance, Romans 8 tells us that God predestines the elect and works in their lives to conform them to the image of Christ. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to His purpose, For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son; that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

It just seems you are nitpicking.

No. I am pointing out flaws in your position. The term nitpicking suggests that I am dealing with fringe issues. The premise of your position is what is where the problem lies. Namely, that God is not truly, completely sovereign over salvation, that He somehow requires the help of man. You then must assume that at least some people have enough goodness within themselves to choose God, see Romans 3:10-13 for a refutation of this notion.

Your mind is made up, you are right.

No. What scripture says is right. If it says something plainly then we have no reason to twist it and distort it to fit what seems apparent to us by experience.

And we haven't even gotten into abominations, like homosexuality, either....even though I thought I gave you a good honest down-to-earth, real-life example....

You did. I don't question the details as you gave them. However, just because they made a profession of faith and seemed to be Christians for a while does not mean they were. Many people act out of their genuine character because of social pressures or a myriad of other reasons. It isn't what these people said or did that matters. It is what God said and does that matters.

... "Testimonies of Former Believers." It might give you some insight into what I have been talking about here, since obviously, I haven't done a very good job communicating in my posts.

First, I would question that credibility of a "former believer." Second, scripture applies to these "testimonies" just as surely as it does to anything else. Their testimonies are not comparable to scripture. When the Bible teaches something contrary to someone's earnest "testimony" then either the person is self-deceived or the Bible is wrong. I believe that people are frequently self-deceived and that the Bible is never wrong.

You still haven't answered my questions

BTW, whether one believes in degrees of sin and punishment or not is irrelevant. The minimum punishment for the most "minor" sin would still be eternity in hell.

 

[LadyEagle]

Heb. 6:[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 12:[15] Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

[16] Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

[17] For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Phil 2:12b:...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You cannot reconcile your eternal security position with the above Scriptures. Also, one sin does not a lifestyle make. I believe you and Scott are being deceived.

Salvation is nothing to be flippant about even though we live in the dispensation of Grace. To not cherish the Gift of Salvation, to pursue a sinful lifestyle renouncing faith in Jesus Christ, declaring ones self to be an atheist,is not working out one's salvation with fear and trembling and makes a mockery of Christ's vicarious suffering on the Cross.

The Bible also says that adulterers and drunkards will not go to heaven.

It kinda goes along with the virgins having their lamps trimmed and ready, waiting for the bridegroom. The ones who aren't ready get left behind.

 

[Pete Richert]

So, according to the above scriptures, you would comment that once you have lost your salvation there is no way of getting it back, yes?

 

[Scott_Bushey]

eaglelives911,
You quote:
[16] Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

[17] For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Scott asks:
Are you trying to imply that Esau was saved? If you look closely, the scripture calls him just what God see's him as; "fornicator and profane"
You have exegeted this passage improperly.

Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

He married outside the tribe..........

Gen 26:34 And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:
Gen 26:35 Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

Gen 36:2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;

Scott adds:
He ended up dwelling with Ishmael an the Edomites.

Gen 28:9 Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.

Gen 32:3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

Jer 49:8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.

Jer 49:10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.

Oba 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

eaglelives911 now writes:
Phil 2:12b:...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Scott asks:
How are you applying this scripture? Are you saying that we "work out our own salvation?" This is semi-Pelagian nonsense. If you intend to use it harmoniously as James does, then according to this premise, what you pose above, does not follow.

Eagle lives writes:
Salvation is nothing to be flippant about even though we live in the dispensation of Grace.

Scott Bushey states:
How have you perceived Scott and I are being *flippant* about our salvation. I am not...I promise you!

Also.........Could you please expound on your comment, "...living in a dispensation of grace". What do you infer? That we are not under the law?
Do you imply that men today are saved in another manner then in days past?

You add:
To not cherish the Gift of Salvation, to pursue a sinful lifestyle renouncing faith in Jesus Christ, declaring ones self to be an atheist,is not working out one's salvation with fear and trembling and makes a mockery of Christ's vicarious suffering on the Cross.

Scott states emphatically:
Only an unbeliever would do this.

eaglelive911 states:
The Bible also says that adulterers and drunkards will not go to heaven.

Scott says:
I think all agree with this comment. However, a believer who commits adultery will repent of his wrong and set himself *BACK* upon the straight and narrow. I believe you are blurring the lines of those that are forever elect and them that are false professors of faith, i.e those that claim Christ , leave and never return.

eaglelives911 writes:
It kinda goes along with the virgins having their lamps trimmed and ready, waiting for the bridegroom. The ones who aren't ready get left behind.

Scott writes:
I suggest you do a deeper study into this parable.
It does not fit harmoniously with the idea of eternal security that the bible presents. A good book to read is by the puritan Thomas Shepard, "The Parable of the Ten Virgins". It can be purchased from Soli Deo Gloria Publications. Believers, will always be ready, keeping watch!

In HIM,
Saved by grace alone,
Scott Bushey

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Heb. 6:[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 12:[15] Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

[16] Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

[17] For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Phil 2:12b:...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You cannot reconcile your eternal security position with the above Scriptures.

Actually, I can. The Hebrews passage has to be read in context with the rest of scripture, not by itself. First, "it is impossible""if they shall fall away". To say something is impossible is not to say that the opposite is possible.

Second, this passage presents at least as much of a problem to your position as it does mine. It establishes clearly that if (the big if) a person lost their salvation, they could never regain it. What happens to "whosoever will"? What about God's willingness to reconcile the lost to Himself?

Third, some commentators like M. Henry conclude that these are "head" only conversions that will be hardened by God if they turn away without making a full commitment.

Also, one sin does not a lifestyle make.

No. But people deserve hell for sin whether it is a single sin or a lifestyle. Your distinction between a single sin and a sinful lifestyle with regards to condemnation is not scriptural.

I believe you and Scott are being deceived.

I feel very safe in the knowledge that God IS sovereign and that the overwhelming weight of scripture supports eternal security. If you believe that God is strong enough to save but too weak to keep us then it is you that are deceived.

Salvation is nothing to be flippant about even though we live in the dispensation of Grace.

I agree and there is nothing more flippant than the notion that people can pick it up and lay it down on a whim or to make it dependent on the goodness within man. When you suggest that we add our independently "good" choices to God's grace, salvation becomes very cheap indeed.

To not cherish the Gift of Salvation, to pursue a sinful lifestyle renouncing faith in Jesus Christ, declaring ones self to be an atheist,is not working out one's salvation with fear and trembling and makes a mockery of Christ's vicarious suffering on the Cross.

No. It is clear evidence that there was never a genuine "new birth" to start with.

The Bible also says that adulterers and drunkards will not go to heaven.

True. Which leads us back to my questions that you never answered. Here's a little more complete list of things that keep unregenerate mankind out of heaven:

"adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like

In other words, you have to be pretty much sinless.

It kinda goes along with the virgins having their lamps trimmed and ready, waiting for the bridegroom. The ones who aren't ready get left behind.

Yes. And all unsaved will be left behind.

[ April 26, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, this is going to be my last post on this thread. I can see we are at an impasse. But just a couple of points.

To quote hrhema earlier in this thread (and I hope hrhema doesn't mind the cut and paste):

No where have I stated that I do not believe believers fail and sin. I know we all fail and sin. Yet no one seems to want to deal with the whole thing I am pointing to and that is why would anyone believe that a person who served God for years can now turn from serving God back into the world, live in deep moral sin, never repent of that sin, never come back to Christ but when that person dies goes to Heaven.

The reason Paul did not fear losing his salvation is because he may have sinned but Paul remained a follower of Christ until his martyrdom. This is again the point I have been making all along.
I do not believe a person will be lost who continues to serve Christ but makes mistakes, may sin etc but has a repentant heart. It is the person who turns from serving Christ and lives the rest of their lives in sin. I cannot except that person will die and go to Heaven.

I totally agree with the above post. I, too, have tried many times to state this and have asked the question repeatedly in different ways, trying to get a point across, but those who hold to the OSAS doctrine will not even consider the fact that they might be wrong!

Might I suggest that these are people's souls here? Just what if the OSAS doctrine is wrong? Are you willing to have the blood of these people on your hands because you are unwilling to even question or pray for their salvation?

You have been condescending, twisted posts around to your own interpretations (and I am hoping this wasn't done intentionally), flat out stated Scripture doesn't support any belief but your own (yet you have not proved it to me), (and like you are the final authority)---all just so YOU could prove your point and feel superior!

Personally, I don't really care what doctrine you believe, but I was trying to get you to question the OSAS doctrine because these are people's eternal souls that are involved here! I KNOW where I am going and in Whom I have believed. I know I am eternally secure. I walk with Jesus! I was questioning for YOUR loved ones, YOUR friends, YOUR co-workers, as well as mine!

But instead of concern, I find this attitude here, which should not be....(to paraphrase, (1) well they must have not been saved to begin with. (2) well one sin can keep a person out of heaven if they haven't been saved (no kidding). (3) By posing these questions, I am "adding to salvation." (works) (4) If they have been saved, nobody can pluck them out of the Father's hand, even if they turn to homosexuality, drug addiction, whatever.

Like hrhema (I am only assuming here), I am banging my head on a brick wall! You won't even take a breath long enough to get down off your doctrinal high horses and THINK about the what if?

I have the burden and will continue to pray for Salvation for those who once believed and have gone astray. I want no one's blood on my hands when I stand before the Father because I believed OSAS doctrine and it turned out to be untrue-no-matter-what. If this is in error, there is no harm done. However, if those who are so dogmatic about OSAS no matter what are wrong, then that is pretty sad.

 

[BPM]

Wordsworth you have convinced me my brother, I think from your post that you do not believe in the eternal security of the believer. When you stated that we can't be in sin and in Christ at the same time, you have told me that although I believe I am saved and I have Prayed a Prayer led by my Pastor and I have searched the scriptures and found many passages that state that I can know I am saved, it doesn't matter because according to you if I sin I am out of Christ. is that what you meant? if so I am sorry but you are wrong. I sin, I am not proud of it but I do but Jesus Christ paid the price for my sin and when I accepted him he accepted me and I will be with him in eternity, now that doesn't mean that he won't take me to the wood shed actually I am there right now and I don't like it but apparently i like my sin or I would not do it.
I do agree that our preaching must be relevant and it must show that we belong to a rightous God who will deal with our sin.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
... I, too, have tried many times to state this and have asked the question repeatedly in different ways, trying to get a point across, but those who hold to the OSAS doctrine will not even consider the fact that they might be wrong!

EagleLives911, You later accuse others of us here of being condescending but isn't that what you are doing? You are basically saying that you have tried your best to show us how wrong we are but we are too hard headed or ignorant to get it.

For your consideration, I HAVE considered this issue and am totally and completely convicted that God is sovereign over salvation and that the believer's security rest with Him.

Might I suggest that these are people's souls here? Just what if the OSAS doctrine is wrong? Are you willing to have the blood of these people on your hands because you are unwilling to even question or pray for their salvation?

Even more condescending... you are suggesting that we don't have a burden for souls because we don't agree with you.

Again, FYI, I have a brother who made a profession of faith...twice. He is a good person as the world counts goodness. He certainly considers himself a believer but is not devoted in any way to serving God and consistently puts worldly things ahead of Him. I don't know if he is saved or not but God does so I do pray that God will deal with His spiritual need.

You have been condescending, twisted posts around to your own interpretations (and I am hoping this wasn't done intentionally), flat out stated Scripture doesn't support any belief but your own (yet you have not proved it to me), (and like you are the final authority)---all just so YOU could prove your point and feel superior!

No. We have disagreed with you and debated the topic with you. If you weren't trying to prove your point, what was your purpose? How do you know what the motives of others are/were? Why did you continually suggest that we were deceived and ought to doubt our position? Was it not to prove the superiority of what you believe?

Scripture was cited and we asked questions of you. But you evaded them.

Personally, I don't really care what doctrine you believe, but I was trying to get you to question the OSAS doctrine because these are people's eternal souls that are involved here!

More condescending... You and those who believe like you are not the only ones with concern for the lost!

But instead of concern, I find this attitude here, which should not be....

Even more condescending yet!!

(1) well they must have not been saved to begin with.

Or, they were (since only God can know the heart, Jer. 17:10) and God is going to chasten them.

(2) well one sin can keep a person out of heaven if they haven't been saved (no kidding).

Why precisely is this indicative of a bad attitude? It comes straight from the Bible, Romans 5.

(3) By posing these questions, I am "adding to salvation." (works)

No. Your questions don't add anything to salvation. However, answering them in a way that makes salvation dependent on what people do...does.

(4) If they have been saved, nobody can pluck them out of the Father's hand, even if they turn to homosexuality, drug addiction, whatever.

This is the absolute crux of this issue- Who is sovereign over salvation, God or man?

You won't even take a breath long enough to get down off your doctrinal high horses and THINK about the what if?

Why do you assume that we are not just as thoughtful as you are? The answers to all of the "what ifs" regarding salvation are in the Bible.

I have the burden and will continue to pray for Salvation for those who once believed and have gone astray. I want no one's blood on my hands when I stand before the Father because I believed OSAS doctrine and it turned out to be untrue-no-matter-what. If this is in error, there is no harm done.

That is where you are terribly wrong. A works based salvation is NOT biblical. To teach that it is or to put man as the lord of salvation will lead people to hell just as surely as teaching that a person can rest on an experience followed by a permanent relapse into sin.

I honestly have nothing at all against you. You obviously are zealous in what you believe. I have probably been rougher with you in this post than I should have been. But if you are going to accuse others in a forum like this of being condescending, uncaring, and hard headed, you should at least evaluate your own posts first.

You believe that OSAS is wrong. I believe OSAS. Throughout your posts, you have depended heavily on experience or real life examples. I believe we should evaluate these things by the Bible. Obviously, I don't believe that people who deny OSAS do this. It isn't personal against you. It is simply what I believe that scripture teaches.

I am truly sorry if you have hurt feelings over this exchange. That was not my intent. My intent was to defend a position that I believe in just is sincerely as you believe in yours.

[ April 27, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

[Graceforever]

I’ve been following this thread and it’s plain to see that Scott J and Scott Bushey, and some others, have been patient and longsuffering in the defense of the Gospel of grace….

One thing that Paul never gave one inch over to his adversaries (of the law) on, was the gospel of grace….. He said, “And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”

Just as Paul was, those of us in the word are set to defend the liberty wherewith the Lord has made us free…

What is the gospel that Paul was defending? Paul says,

“But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the “gospel of the grace of God.”

He further claims,

” I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; [Hear that, NTHER GOSPEL] but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As was in Paul’s day, they’re still those that would pervert the gospel of Gods grace….

You know how you pervert the grace of God? You say that Christ blood is not sufficient to cleanse you of all sin…. You say that you must add a little work in order to help him save you… You say, sure Christ saves us by grace, BUT but then it is up to us to remain pure….

In saying that you don’t understand the plan of salvation… When Moses hung the serpent in the wilderness, the only thing that God asked to those that were bitten by the serpent was only to look upon the serpent…. Nothing else, no pushups, chin-ups, helping old ladies across the street, running into a burning building to save a baby, treat your cat good, restrain yourself from smoking camel filters, or make a eunuch out of yourself…. Nothing, just look upon the serpent and you’ll be saved….

Likewise, Christ says, as Moses raised the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up that who so ever should look upon him, shall be saved… Not maybe, not If, but SHALL be saved….

They will argue that no man can take you out of Gods hands, except themselves….. Yet they never read the next verse that says, “ye shall never perish”

Does eternal life mean what it says? Simple question…. Does eternal life mean eternal? Does it mean eternal, only if, “I” continue to serve Christ?

When God saved Noah, did he place him safely in the ark and close the door? Or, did he hang some wooden pegs on the side and say, you will be safe just as long as you cling and hold on to the side of the ark?

Which brings the question, why would God save you in the first place if he knew you would one day backslide forever into sin? Is God all knowing?

The blood that was placed over the Israelites door, did it protect those in the house? Was everyone in those houses innocent? No! But everyone had the blood applied…. If blood were also placed over an Egyptian house, would the death angel have passed over that house? Sure, he would… The Blood is what saves, the righteousness of the flesh doesn’t profit us anything….

Finally, I’ll end this never-ending story with this quote in the bible… The same one that Martin Luther used to finally bring him, from the depths of blindness, and futile disparity of works, to the true gospel of grace, “The just shall love by faith

Peace, Gary

 

[LadyEagle]

GARY: You say that Christ blood is not sufficient to cleanse you of all sin…. You say that you must add a little work in order to help him save you… You say, sure Christ saves us by grace, BUT but then it is up to us to remain pure….

I did not say this. Don't misquote me.

By the way, I know all about the serpent in the wilderness, the blood on the door posts, and the ark in the flood...you are addressing someone who has probably been studying the Bible longer than you have been alive on this planet, not a new Believer. But thanks anyway.

Also noticed no affiliation with a local church in yours and Scott J's profiles. That explains everything.

[ April 28, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]

 

[Brutus]

Eagle;I'm still waiting for your reply to my post.Are you ignoring me?

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Brutus:
Eagle;I'm still waiting for your reply to my post.Are you ignoring me?

Hi Brutus. Didn't realize you had a question in your post, didn't mean to ignore you. I actually wasn't planning to post anymore on this thread because it's quite obvious the Calvinists are busy here.

BTW, I lived in Danville many years ago. On Franklin and over on Sherman.

 

[LadyEagle]

Some scriptures for the Calvinists to answer---these refute the false doctrine of OSAS or "eternal security no matter what, if you are a homosexual, drunkard, live a lifestyle of unconfessed sin, or turn atheist":

Gary said: You know how you pervert the grace of God? You say that Christ blood is not sufficient to cleanse you of all sin…. You say that you must add a little work in order to help him save you… You say, sure Christ saves us by grace, BUT but then it is up to us to remain pure….

First of all, I did not say that. A misquote. Your twisting of my words, again.

Secondly, check out these verses:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."


Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

[ April 28, 2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Eaglelives911 writes:
In regards to OSAS, speaking of ScottJ or Scott Bushey, That we (apparently) believe:
"eternal security no matter what, if you are a homosexual, drunkard, live a lifestyle of unconfessed sin, or turn atheist":

Scott states:
EL911,
ScottJ and I in no way adhear to the above statement. We have never implied that we believe this. Sinners that reject God and submit to their flesh to adopt lifestyles such as these will perish for eternity. However, a homosexual that backslides (much like the prodigal) and ultimately repents, rejects his sin, and return to the sheepfold will end up with a crown.

The OSAS premise is based solely upon the promises of God in the scope of the *perseverance of the saint*. Gods word states that He alone brought about salvation, for His purposes and glory alone, not because of anything His creation accomplished. Based upon this idea (the elective decree of God), we rest in that.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

IN HIM,
Scott Bushey

[ April 28, 2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[wordsworth]

BPM:

says: Wordsworth you have convinced me my brother, I think from your post that you do not believe in the eternal security of the believer. When you stated that we can't be in sin and in Christ at the same time, you have told me that although I believe I am saved and I have Prayed a Prayer led by my Pastor and I have searched the scriptures and found many passages that state that I can know I am saved, it doesn't matter because according to you if I sin I am out of Christ. is that what you meant?
My Christian brothers, please do not lead lost souls into empty and easy believism. Many of us have been duped into thinking that a form prayer saves, and not only that, we then have become bold enough to heap the Once Saved Always Saved robe on all unregenerated persons simply because they recite the magical prayer. LET GOD GIVE THE ASSURANCE, YEA, LET GOD BE GOD! Many think they are saved now, and yet show no outward evidence of it; their souls are never addressed again by the minister, and rightly so, since they are usually told of their once saved always saved position. And still many are not saved who "do" show evidence of salvation to those watching by their careful actions. What horrible bondage they must be in! In truth, no minister knows anyone's heart-- so to assure someone of eternal security is dangeously trifling with TRUTH-- the very thing for which we are to be willing die. I believe it is God who will judge the heart.

BPM-- Paul dealt with this extensively in Romans. The wages of sin is still death. You cannot sin like the devil and be saved as Charles Stanley has said. The soul that sins will die, whether you believe you are saved or not. If you willingly sin, you should tremble and flee from your sin to Christ. Read 1 John, specifically 3:5,6. Sin is never condoned or treated lightly in scripture, but it is in many churches of our perverted day.

Friend, Christ came to defeat sin in our lives so that we would no longer be slave to it. Why do you sin after receiving such wonderful grace? The answer is not an easy one to face, sin should have no power over you--- why? Because we should now be walking in the Spirit, not the flesh. Christ came to change our minds from one of carnality to holiness. The Bible says, walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh---friend, all sin comes from the lusts of the flesh. The carnal mind is enmity with God.

Yes, Christ died for our sins, and our sins were wiped away on the cross, but a license to future sins, NO. Why trample such a gift? But if we do sin a sin not leading to death, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us, but where is the heart of a person who uses First John 1:9 as convenience to justify his sin.

Friend, sin is terrible! And one who claims to be saved and yet is still enslaved to sin is the most miserable of creatures and should fearfully expect to be in hell at every moment. They are self-decieved, comfortable, lost. Even if one thinks he is saved and continues to sin, is not God able to graft him out just as he was grafted in? (Romans 11:23).

Granted, if someone is truly born again and remains in Christ , God will keep him through to the end, but this has not been the message. The message has been, say this or do that and you're guaranteed safety no matter what! Damnable lie! You ministers who teach this, I in love exhort you to REPENT! Your hands will be drenched with blood on that day. Legalism? Don't even try it. God saved us to be a holy people, not to pacify our consciences where continued sin is concerned. Regeneration leads to good works while escewing sin; not good works and escewing sin leads to regeneration. GO AND SIN NO MORE!

BPM--- yes, you can KNOW you're saved, but you can't know if someone else is saved with absolute certainty. I know I'm saved because of the Spirit's witness to my spirit. It's like an ineffable peace that no earthly thing, temptation or circumstance can quench. I know why Christ described life as water flowing out of your belly... it's a purity, a freshness, so ethereal. Do you really have this witness I'm speaking of--be sure! ETERNITY IS TOO LONG TO BE WRONG! If not cry out to Him who saves us from our wretchedness. If you are still in bondage to sin, you are not saved, because you're still in your sins.
There are so many tares in the churches today-- even in the pulpits, choirs,... I'm not surprised, however, Jesus warned us to beware of these.

In Love,
Wordsworth

 

[OSAS]

Greetings...

If it wasn't for "Once Saved, always saved" I would certainly not be here now! I strayed as far from Jesus as I possibly could, only to have his grace save me from sitting in the "Lake of Fire" listening to satan complain for an eternity about how he lost the battle!

 

[hrhema]

Sorry Guy but according to the OSAS doctrine you were never saved in the first place. According to the doctrine a believer cannot backslide. They can grow cold. If a person goes back into deep sin they were never a believer in the first place. This is the message taught by those who believe this doctrine on this thread.

I personally believe a believer can backslide.
I also believe that nearly 90% who backslide come back to Christ. I do not question your original experience with God. Jesus said a smoking flax he will not quench which he was directing to this subject.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

hrhema,
I do not know where you have come up with this idea that the reformed on this thread believe that believers cannot backslide. We agree with the biblical teaching on this subject. We do not agree that they have fallen from grace. They are prodigals, they are sons. Sonship cannot change. Frank Bushey will alway be my (earthly) father and God will always be my Heavenly father. Sons are sons forever. Backsliders return............

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 02, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[OSAS]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Sorry Guy but according to the OSAS doctrine you were never saved in the first place.

Huh???????
I began attending South Euclid Baptist Church (SBC) Ontario, California At age 5, walked up to the altar to Pastor Robert Downey to accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord & Saviour at age 8, baptised 2 weeks later, and stayed in that church until 15 yrs. old. I was taught in Sunday School the OSAS doctrine. It came from the BF&M, which after checking, is still there today!

"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

During my backslidden time as a prince of satan, the Holy Spirit convicted me more times than I will ever remember. I worried daily to semi- daily. When I finally returned home to the church, I left behind a pagan empire I had built that had drug me as low as I had ever thought I could go.(Pagan Internet Industries Inc.,www.ariadnespider.com,www.paganetwork.net,www.pagancorp.com,www.paganvillages.com,www.spellkit.com, among many many others.) A messenger of the Lord Jesus Christ was sent to me to call me home. It was something I am still in awe of today...

If it had not been for OSAS and that little SBC, I assure you, I would not be here right now...

Am I missing something in the OSAS doctrine??