Do people which commit suicide automatically go to hell?

[Eric B]

I showed clearly in God's Holy Word that no murderer has eternal life abiding in Him. Since Jesus said He would never leave us, nor forsake us, I think John answered the question quite well.

Here are two totally separate verse pasted together into a supposed statement. But it would contradict it, because if the person kills himself, then Jesus DOES "leave and forsake him". Or, you will claim it was the person who left and forsook Jesus, or perhaps never had Jesus in the first place. But as others have been saying, Christians commit all sorts of sin, including murder, and don't forget that murder is not just literally plunging a knife into someone, but rather being angry with him without cause, or calling names.
So the only difference with suicide, is that the person will no longer be alive to "repent"; hence your "last act" concept. I once thought like that, when I was a brand new baby Christian, and influenced by works-righteousness sects like Armstrongism. But God's forgiveness is not predicated on us saying some prayer of "repentance" after every sin (like the Catholics argued here last year; hence rbell's "Last Rites" reference). Salvation is not by having some good work as your "last act" either; nor is damnation from having some "bad work" as one's last act. "Murderer having no eternal life" obviously refers to someone whose murders (literal and in the heart) are never covered by the Blood. And it is not covered and uncovered and recovered again and again every time a person commits a sin and then "repents". Where did you even get that "last act" idea from, anyway? It is not in the scriptures.

And "Jesus will never leave you nor forsake you" also means that even if you fail, like that, He will be faithful in saving by His grace and mercy. THIS is what we "Trust God" for. It's amazing how people have taken these statements to make them mean "if you are suffering, God knows it's good for your good and not more than you can bear", so "trust Him", for "he will never leave you nor forsake you" (what is being implied in sfic's and others' use of them) and tell the sufferers of the world that this means they must "endure" their suffering or "infirmities", "temptations", etc. with a right attitude or reaction, or they are not really saved. This turns the promise in those passages on its ear!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Again, xdx,

A suicide is not reversible. One cannot commit suicide and after they die ask for and receive forgiveness.

Some people do fail at their suicide attempts. My first wife did. In 1986 she put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger. That one instant of stupidity bought her a 16 day stay in a hospital with all the bills that went along with that stay. It cost her much more. She is totally blind because of that stupid act of selfishness 21 years ago. She also severed her olfactory nerve so she has no sense of smell.

I believe her failed attempt was God telling her that suicide is not an answer to life's problems. That she needs to look to Him for those answers and for the peace that passes all understanding even in the fiercest of life's troubles. But no, she has since been hospitalized 4 different times since then for attempted suicides by overdose. Last year, she was committed to an institution where her pill intake is monitored. She still will not give her life over to God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Here are two totally separate verse pasted together into a supposed statement. But it would contradict it, because if the person kills himself, then Jesus DOES "leave and forsake him".

Or is it possible that the person never had obtained eternal life as John wrote? Or was John lying?

 

[xdisciplex]

Again, xdx,

A suicide is not reversible. One cannot commit suicide and after they die ask for and receive forgiveness.

Does this mean you belong to those which think that if they sin and die before asking for forgiveness for this sin they go to hell?

This is a very scary theology. I have once read something about it and I was terrified. I remember sitting there and confessing sins all the time being afraid of dying and going to hell. This was very "liberating".... this is the kind of theology which sends you straight into a strait jacket.

 

[Eric B]

Or is it possible that the person never had obtained eternal life as John wrote? Or was John lying?

I allowed for that idea, but either a person is covered by the Blood (yet can still fall into a bad work like that), or salvation is by works, and one must never commit a sin again to be saved. Does the rest of scripture lie, then? You are taking one single verse and running with it, ignoring all the others (which you are setting it against).

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Where do I get the last act thing?

Jesus spoke it when He said that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit.

Suicide is evil. It is murder.

Are you calling Jesus a liar when He says a good tree will not bear evil fruit? Are you saying a saved person can bear the evil fruit of suicide and God will say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant.'?

The Word of God says all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, yet you say otherwise?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I allowed for that idea, but either a person is covered by the Blood (yet can still fall into a bad work like that), or salvation is by works, and one must never commit a sin again to be saved. Does the rest of scripture lie, then? You are taking one single verse and running with it, ignoring all the others (which you are setting it against).

So, all the other verses negate the two in Revelation that clearly state all murderers (not some) will have their part in the lake of fire?

 

[xdisciplex]

Where do I get the last act thing?

Jesus spoke it when He said that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit.

Suicide is evil. It is murder.

Are you calling Jesus a liar when He says a good tree will not bear evil fruit? Are you saying a saved person can bear the evil fruit of suicide and God will say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant.'?

Is sin not also a bad fruit?

You get totally hung up on single verses sects do the very same thing. They also use single verses and then use this "Are you calling God a liar?" technique which allows you to mess people up and to make them feel guilty.
By taking single verses out of the bible I can also "prove" to you that God is a bird.

 

[xdisciplex]

So, all the other verses negate the two in Revelation that clearly state all murderers (not some) will have their part in the lake of fire?

Then I guess David will also be in the lake of fire because the bible says ALL murderers and it does not say all murderers which did not repent.

Or are you saying that the bible is lying?

 

[Eric B]

Where do I get the last act thing?

Jesus spoke it when He said that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit.

Suicide is evil. It is murder.

Are you calling Jesus a liar when He says a good tree will not bear evil fruit? Are you saying a saved person can bear the evil fruit of suicide and God will say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant.'?

The Word of God says all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, yet you say otherwise?

We all commit sins, so "fruits" cannot mean sinless perfection; and neither does it say anything about any "last act". There again, you simply proof-texted, and did not prove your idea with scripture.

So, all the other verses negate the two in Revelation that clearly state all murderers (not some) will have their part in the lake of fire?

They don't negate, they work together. What is a "murderer"? Any person who has either literally killed, or even had hatred and anger in their hearts, who dies without christ. Of they receive Christ, then they are forgiven. They may still sin in the future, but this is contrary to their new nature. It still does not make them charged with the sin again; else NOBODY could ever be saved! You're the one taking one and negating the rest. You do not seem to know that any righteousness we have is imputed to us, and without it, we are all murderers, liars, and all other sins.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It is not that I did not prove my idea with Scripture, but that you do not see the truth that was presented through the Scripture.

We cannot just throw out the verses that say all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire and act like they were never there. We cannot throw out the verse that says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him and act like it was never there. God's Word abideth forever, my firends. He cannot lie.

If His Word says the murderer has no eternal life in him, then He is revealing the true nature of the man's heart.

If His Word says all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, then He is revealing the truth of His judgment for those who ultimately rejected His Son.

And that is exactly what the self-centered suicidal person did. They placed their trust in something other than Christ.

Wonder why God did not instruct Paul to kill himself when Paul asked Him to remove the thorn in his flesh. Why did God instead say, 'My grace is sufficient'?

The Psalmist wrote, 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.' It is not the Lord delivering out of afflictions when man kills himself. It is a clear denial of God's Word. Nothing less.

 

[xdisciplex]

David murdered, this means he is a murderer. Is David in hell? Yes or no?

The bible says ALL murderers have their place in the lake of fire.

what about Samson? Did he not also kill himself?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Your argument that all sins past, present and future are forgiven at time faith is placed in Christ is a valid argument. And I whole-heartedly agree.

But I also know that Christ knows man's heart. God knows every act we will ever commit in this life. If He knows the final things we do in life, If He knows that the suicidal person is going to deny Christ by putting his or her faith in something other than Christ, has He truly saved that person?

The devil tempted Jesus with suicide in Matthew 4. Jesus rebuked the devil with the Word of God by telling him 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.' Jesus knew suicide was a sin, and told the devil so.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

David murdered, this means he is a murderer. Is David in hell? Yes or no?

The bible says ALL murderers have their place in the lake of fire.

what about Samson? Did he not also kill himself?

David murdered, yes. But if you read your Bible, you will find David repented of that murder. And the Bible teaches that once one is repentent and is forgiven, that one's sins are cast into the depths of the sea to be remembered by God no more.

When one comes to Christ, his or her sins are covered by the blood. But as I said above, Christ knows our hearts. He knows if we are going to endure to the end, or if we are going to ultimately deny Him. It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved (Matt. 10:24). Can it be said that the suicide endured?

 

[Amy.G]

I do not think that people who commit suicide are in their right mind and able to comprehend the consequences of their actions. When my uncle killed himself, he was severly depressed and felt that we would all be better off without him. Of course this was not true and in fact we have all suffered greatly because of his act and we are still trying to cope with it and come to sort of peace about it. But to say it's murder I would have to disagree with because murder is a deliberate act of hatred and evil against another person. This is not what's in the heart of a suicidal person. They are suffering from mental illness. Personally, I believe Satan uses depression for his own means of destroying God's children. I have suffered from depression myself and I can tell you that my thoughts were NOT normal. That's why XDX needs to get the proper medical care and stop all the excuses for not taking his meds.

XDX, there is help for your depression, but if you refuse it I believe God WILL hold you responsible for your actions simply because you did not accept the help HE offered you. And remember...suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and leaves life long scars on the people that are left behind.

 

[Amy.G]

Christ knows our hearts.QUOTE]
That is the whole point. Only Christ knows what the real intentions are of the mentally unstable person who takes his own life.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

murder is a deliberate act of hatred and evil against another person.

Not necessarily, Amy...

In Numbers 35, cities were set up as refuge for those who murders another accidently. Not all murders are with malice aforethought.

 

[Amy.G]

Not necessarily, Amy...

In Numbers 35, cities were set up as refuge for those who murders another accidently. Not all murders are with malice aforethought.

Yes, I agree SFIC. But I think it's possible that suicide falls in that category because the person who takes his own life is definitely not thinking straight. If you have ever suffered from depression you understand how messed up your thoughts can be. I've been there and it was very scary. The brain can get sick just like any other organ in your body.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

My argument is that it does not fall in the category of unintentional or accidental. The suicide has enough presence of mind to know a gun or other means will end their existence. No, it is intentional.

 

[Amy.G]

My argument is that it does not fall in the category of unintentional or accidental. The suicide has enough presence of mind to know a gun or other means will end their existence. No, it is intentional.

Yes, it is intentional, but they do not have a muderous heart when they commit the act. That's why I say only the Lord can judge the intent. A person who commits suicide is NOT the same as a cold blooded murderer.