1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Do people which commit suicide automatically go to hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jan 4, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 5 of 16
  1. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    If they were saved, they would have heard the Shepherd's voice and followed Him instead of listening to the one who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Or do you deny that Jesus said His sheep will not follow another?
     
    #81 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look, both arguments have merit. I have been taught all my life that those who kill themselves go to Hell. I have began to

    question that when it comes to the mind. I have a bad heart, it does not provide the proper blood to all the other organs of

    my body, including the brain. Sometimes, I have to just stand for some time to remember what I am supposed to do. There

    are things really important in my life that my companion tells me about that happened a year ago or more and I cannot

    remember it at all.

    What I am trying to say is the brain is an organ the same as my heart deteriated, so can the brain deteriate to a point that a

    person mind is crazy, things are moving about him that he don't know what it is. He is trying so hard to figure out where he is,

    but can't. If he got his hands on a gun, he might shoot himself and never know what he really did. Will God hold him

    responsible, I don't think so, but that is just me.

    What SFIC is quoting and saying is true also, as long as we are of sound mind. We don't say it is sin, until we reach an age to

    know better. Well, if we go past an age to know better, then what is the difference.
     
    #82 Brother Bob, Jan 5, 2007
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    2
    OK, let's throw something else into this, Standing. There is a difference between murder and killing. Murder is considered to be a 'subset' of killing, in that it is with malice and forethought against someone who is not legally deserving of death.

    So is suicide murder or killing? Does a person kill himself with malice? Does he consider himself deserving of death, morally or legally?

    If the person is in chronic severe pain, so that his thinking is disoriented (I've been there done that, OK?), and if, knowing there is no relief in sight (haven't been there yet...), he decides to end his own life, perhaps to save the people around him from having to deal with his personality changes or whatever, is he commiting murder or simply killing himself?

    Let me pose another scenario out of many I could think of. I have something called paradoxic drug reactions. My father had it and my son has it, so I'm assuming it is hereditary. Pain killing drugs, muscle relaxers and such can do strange things inside me, hyping me up for a 24 hour stint, making me moody, whatever. One of the worst reactions I seem to have is to local anasthetics. It took a dentist about ten years ago to realize what was happening, because within about 48 hours of getting the locals needed for fillings and such, I would be in a sobbing heap on my bed. It seems that the chemical breaking down of the shots is something that overloads something in my brain or chemistry or something. The last time this happened was after quite a few locals to deal with some severe problems all in one day. Two days later my oldest son sat on my bed keeping an eye on me because I was so messed up I was talking about life not being worth living! He was honestly afraid I might try to take my own life. I don't know what would have happened if he was not there. I might have simply fallen asleep or I might have done something really stupid.

    Suppose I had tried to commit suicide. Would that have been murdering myself, or would it have been manslaughter?

    Within a few hours the chemicals had finished breaking down and my body had dealt with them and I was fine and my happy, normal self again.

    I think what I am trying to say is that you need to be very, very careful with your judgments, Standing. It is God who judges the heart, and that is where it should be left.
     
    #83 Helen, Jan 5, 2007
  4. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    when I think about Jesus rubbing the grain on Sabbath and he told the Pharisees that in that case it was allright to do that because of the motive involved in doing it.... and He mentioned David eating the shewbread that was unlawful to eat...

    here, look at this:

    Prov:6:30: Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry

    sometimes I think God looks at motivation... in fact He always considers that.


    I agree with Helen
     
    #84 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
  5. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    Helen and Bob,

    What do we do with the verse where Jesus said His sheep will hear his voice and follow Him and not another?

    Aren't they following another if they listen to the lies of the devil and commit suicide?
     
    #85 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
  6. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Every single Christian who follows Jesus Christ and is going to be saved is not doing every single thing the same so somebody must be wrong... but they will all be saved.

    Somebody must not always be following the voice of Christ.

    Every moment that you dont have love in your heart for every person who Jesus died for, you yourself are not following the voice of Christ.
     
    #86 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
  7. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elijah, didnt he become depressed and pray to the Lord to take his life and let him die?
     
    #87 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    2
    The devil cannot be everywhere at once. He is not God. A person's temptations and delusions often come from his own heart and mind. If the mind is chemically off balance for one reason or another, and at war with a heart that loves God, and something is done which would not be done in normal circumstances....

    I am very glad God is the judge and not you, Standing...
     
    #88 Helen, Jan 5, 2007
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Death can be a miracle of God. There comes a time in our lives that our bodies just can't stay here anymore. They are finished and God just "lets us die". I understand you SFIC and admit I do not have all the answers but I am sure glad it is not my decision. I know this much, we just don't see those kind today. There were there when the Lord walked the earth also.

    We make a way for children to kill and still be saved so I don't know why we could not make a way for someone who has become a child again.
     
    #89 Brother Bob, Jan 5, 2007
  10. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2006
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mr. "xdisciplex", I hope that you have carefully read the posts by Eric B. He is a man after my own heart. Thank you, Eric. You have handled this matter quite well.
     
    #90 DQuixote, Jan 5, 2007
  11. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,766
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Eric,
    you speak from my heart. This is so frustrating and sobering. Everybody does as if it was sooo easy. Oh, just pray and ask God to guide you and he will. Yay!
    Does not everybody pray? And everybody thinks that he is right but not everybody can be right because not all agree. Maybe some can just take it easy and be like a child and simply pray and then assume that whatever they think the bible says is directly from God and this means they are always right on and everybody who disagrees is simply wrong. I cannot do this. I think this is simply absurd. In the end everybody simply has his own opinion and depending on how self-assured a person is he/she will either defend her own opinion as if it was the absolute truth or he/she will simply be insecure, like me. I don't have the answers to most questions. Some christians seem to always have an answer. It's amazing. You can ask them whatever you want they always have an answer and think they are right on and everybody who disagrees is simply wrong. I couldn't do this.
    I don't know, some christians do not seem to think that this even is a problem they simply say: All christians agree on the basic things which are necessary to be saved.

    Great. But this doesn't help me. These thing are all important! Healing is important, tongues are important, salvation is important. These are all important questions and not unimportant minor concerns.
    It's simply so frustrating to see all these different opinions. In the end you can never really be sure that you are right and understand something correctly. Sometimes when I think about it I feel like becoming paranoid. In the end you can really never be really sure that you have it right. In the end these questions are also way too important to simply take them easy. Imagine you think you got it all right and think you're saved and then you find out you're not saved? This thought alone is already so scary that there is hardly anything which could make you feel really safe with your opinion. Let's say I think that once saved always saved is true then I still could never feel safe with it and rely on it because there is always the fear that I might be wrong and then I find myself in hell. Even if I heard a voice from heaven telling me that I am right I could still not feel safe! Because it could be Satan trying to deceive me. When you think about this you can really become paranoid. I think that these things have the potential to make a person become insane when you simply cannot take it anymore and are consumed by fear of going to hell or fear of not being saved or fear of being a false convert or fear of being left behind. Fear, fear, fear. It simply never ends. Christians preach fear on every corner. No matter what you listen to many sermons simply create fear. And when I then hear some christians say that being a christian makes you free I ask myself what I'm doing wrong. I don't really feel free. This doesn't mean that I don't want to be a christian anymore but being a christian isn't easy, at least for me. For others it might be easy, for some sunshine boys which are always optimistic and positive everything is easy. They smile all day and praise the Lord all day but all these things also depend on your personality. If you're not a sunshine boy then you also will never become one and also becoming a christian will not turn you into somebody who sings hallelujah all day. It's not easy to praise God and to get into a worship-mood when you're depressed all the time and the fact that I have a hard time worshipping makes me feel bad, too. It's really a vicious circle. In the beginning when I became a christian I had no contact to christians and no sermons and I just thought that God is on my side and I had this naive belief that God understands everything, which was most likely too liberal and also not correct, but at least I didn't feel guilty all the time and I also wasn't scared of God, which I'm also at times. Often I feel bad and ask myself what God thinks about me, wether he's angry or disappointed or wether he thinks I'm lazy or foolish or carnal or whatever. But I never know what he thinks.
    And then these "great" advice which claim that you can really know God's heart from reading the bible. I guess all people here read the bible but who can really say he knows God's heart and knows his thoughts? All this arguing here only shows that in the end nobody really knows what God really thinks and how he is like.
    I don't know, I'm afraid that maybe I will never find a solution for these problems and that I will always be frustrated and not understand what the bible means and also not know how God really is. But this would be worth so much. But hearing from God is also something which is not ranked very high in conservative circles. They say "you have the bible, what more do you need?" oh yeah. I guess this means that you could also communicate with your parents using letters and you would still know them as much as you do. I think that this is not correct. Imagine God says something to you which is just for you or imagine you could ask God a question and he would reply then you could really get to know Him and maybe comprehend how He really is, how His character is. And then you would also automatically love God more. The more you know Him the more you love Him, this is logical. But the bible alone isn't sufficient to really understand how he is. There are verses in the bible which can be used to paint a picture of a nice God and there are verses in the bible which can be used to terrify christians and in the end you don't know how He really is.
    For example when a disaster happens some christians say that this was God. You will find "prophecies" all over the internet which claim that Jesus is speaking and where he says that he did this and some chistians believe this and think that Jesus caused te hurricane to punish the wicked people in new orleans. Other christians will say that this was not God. But in the end you're simply left with this uncertainty not knowing how God really is and when there's uncertainty then there is also room for all these negative thoughts and anxieties and then you get the worst pictures of God and imagine Him as a harsh dictator and feel totally alienated from Him. I've been through all of this. In times where everything is working and where I feel like life is good to me I think that God must be satisfied and happy and in times where everything is not good I fear that God might be punishing me for something.
    And when I then get advice like "simply come to Jesus, he is waiting for you" it upsets me. As if I wasn't keen on this. I have had times where I was motivated and wanted to get a breakthrough and where I wanted to talk to God and pray for hours but it didn't take long and I became very frustrated because I couldn't even pray for hours and then I gave up. And other christians seem to have all these things which are desirable. They say they hear God and that they experience miracles in their lives and they have all these things and I'm like a spectator who's just watching from the outside. Very frustrating. If I at least knew what the reason is but there could be so many reasons. Once I thought that it might be music and I threw all secular cds out but nothing changed. In the end there are so many possible reasons which might be holding you back but maybe it's also something totally different.
    Or maybe it's because of sin and then I think I gotta get rid of this sin and I gotte improve here and improve there but it's never really liberating because even if I got victory over all these things then I would most likely feel good about myself but this would also be wrong because then I would think that getting rid of certain sins means that God must be satisfied with me and this would also be wrong. Somehow no matter what you do seems wrong.
     
    #91 xdisciplex, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2007
  12. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    And I am so glad God has given me the wisdom to understand that if I committed suicide I would be going straight to hell for no murderer will enter heaven. I am glad He gives me the wisdom to hear His voice and follow Him instead of listening to satan and killing myself as my first wife tried to do several years ago.

    I am so glad when He saved me, He gave me the wisdom to know that suicide is not of God and that if I did commit suicide, that it would be the ultimate proof that I had rejected His Son all along; that it was only a form of Godliness that I had but denied His Son. I am glad when satan tries to lie to me and tell me suicide is not bad, you will still go to heaven, that the Spirit reminds me of the Word, He guides me into the truth that satan is a deceiver and a liar from the beginning.
     
    #92 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
  13. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    At the same time, it would be an awful thing to give people the idea that suicide is allright... and cause them to be lost.

    My ex- Father in Law committed suicide and he left a note saying that he thought he would go straight to heaven...

    I mean, there are probably some cases where God would forgive but for the most part suicide is an evil thing to do.... your life is a gift to you from God and you are to use it wisely.


    Claudia
     
    #93 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    and there again, Claudia, you have also touched on another area. Being a faithful steward. Can one who commits suicide be said to be faithful?
     
    #94 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
  15. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    On such a subject, I only wish, with all my theological training, and years of service, I could be so absolute in such condemnation of a troubled soul in the act of suicide.

    I find it so great stretch of the mind to reach such a conclusion, I have to wonder just what education the proponents have undergone, and whether they are even qualified to understand what scripture is saying.

    Cheers, and God bless those who suffer the most in a suicide; the survivors.

    Jim
     
    #95 Jim1999, Jan 5, 2007
  16. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    Jim,

    What's not to understand? How does one deny 'Whosoever committeth murder has no eternal life abiding in him?' How does one deny 'All murderers will have their part in the lake of fire'?
     
    #96 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  17. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0

    No, a person is cutting off maybe many years of his or her life... years that were supposed to be spent spreading the Gospel to others.

    1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
     
    #97 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
  18. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    And a hearty Amen! '

    the next verse tells us to glorify God in our bodies and in our spirits, which are God's.
     
    #98 standingfirminChrist, Jan 5, 2007
  19. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    For one, it is a stretch of the definition of the word "murder", and even a greater stretch the the verses quoted.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #99 Jim1999, Jan 5, 2007
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    well Jim why is it? Whats the difference if you think you have a good reason to kill someone else or to kill yourself? If you go off in a murderous rage you are not thinking straight either.


    I started off viewing things the other way but now Im thinking how awful it would be to even encourage anyone to think they will be saved if they kill themselves.
     
    #100 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
Page 5 of 16
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...