Do We All have the same Kind Of Free Will as adam Had From God?

[agedman]

When I said, "I haven't seen that in the Scriptures, anywhere. Rather, I see in each case that understanding is ONLY attainable when it is GIVEN by God"

You posted:

Then you have refused to consider that God has already given this understanding to all men. It's called the Bible.
Christ spoke in parables to keep men from understanding on purpose that prophecy would be fulfilled. Yet we have the explanations of those Parables given to the disciples who in turn gave them to us in the New Testiment.
This is what Paul said about it;
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

That Salvation was sent to us in the form of the New Testament. I call it the Word of God. It was explained by the disciples so that the Gentiles could understand it. So understanding has already been given to every mothers son. Of course I know you'll try and suppress this as well but the truth shines through every single time.
MB

Did you actually READ the passage before quoting it????

The passage PROVES what I stated and you were attempting to refute!!!!

Look. See for yourself. "Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:..."

Isaiah foretold that the gospel would NOT be heard, and that it would be given to the gentiles. That the gentiles would hear.

But what you neglect to grasp, is that the passage clearly states that this is God ordained. It is not the validation of some natural ability inbred from Adam that all men posses, rather it is a declarative statement of who and why the gospel message was being delivered to the gentiles.



Second, this passage does NOTHING to support that the gospel is understandable by "every mother's son."

Throughout the gospels the phrase "ears to hear" is used. This phrase is an indicator that an ability is given to hear more than just words, but also to perceive and understand the meanings. That this ability was not given to "every mother's son" but unique and not generally endowed.

 

[agedman]

I thought you were doing good until you made the reference and the words that lead to you using the words, "pure fiction."

Well it is certainly true if God did not reveal Himself to mankind, we would have no actual understanding of Him, but would hold to the inventions of men, i.e pagan religions.

But the work of the Spirit in revelation goes beyond the act of inspiring scripture. Certainly an indwelt believer grows in spiritual maturity only with the help of God who is doing a "good work" in all of us.

However, what many claim, with the need for the internal call, is that fallen mankind cannot respond to the call of the gospel. Pure fiction.

Paul explains that without being indwelt men of flesh cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. the things learned with the aid of our indwelt Helper. However, Paul goes on to say men of flesh can understand and learn from the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

No, Paul states that SAVED, yet still carnal, can understand and learn. BUT that is NOT applicable to the unsaved.

Look at the underlined words that present your reference in context.



"1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (This refers to the Word of God that would be completed with the Revelation).
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (This is why prophecy as a gift continued until "that which was in part" was complete.)
11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians chapter 3

1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

Paul is NOT talking to fallen, unsaved people. Paul is addressing THE CHURCH at Corinth.

They are saved! They are believers! They have not grown and THAT is what Paul is addressing.

He is NOT speaking of the condition of these believers as needing salvation, but in great need of growth.

He is NOT speaking that the unbeliever has ANY ability to comprehend, hear, or accept the gospel. The underlined places are valid proof of what Paul is addressing as both what believers and unbelievers can and cannot do. .

 

[agedman]

Agreed. I just reject the concept that someone must be saved (spiritually indwelled) before they can understand the truths revealed in scripture.

You then do not stand in agreement with the scriptures speaking of the unsaved understanding the Word of God.

"neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[agedman]

In fact, we know natural men can understand and believe the gospel from Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13. Both verses teach that a man first believes, and afterwards receives the Holy Spirit.

NO!!!!

YOU are misstating the intent of what Paul is teaching!


Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (FAITH - is given by God! It is not man generated unto salvation, rather it is as the Scriptures teach, it is measured to each believer as God has purposed.)
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Do you see where you miss applied the Scriptures in a desire to prove that ALL men can understand - No Paul is arguing about BELIEVERS who are being pulled back by false teachers into what is not of the Spirit and not of the Faith.

You do similar with the Ephesians passage. It does not support what you desire.

Here is the context:

"Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all."


When you reference Scriptures, please make certain that they agree with what you hold. These do not.

 

[MB]

When I said, "I haven't seen that in the Scriptures, anywhere. Rather, I see in each case that understanding is ONLY attainable when it is GIVEN by God"

You posted:



Did you actually READ the passage before quoting it????

It stands to reason that if you had read it your self, you would not have asked this question.

The passage PROVES what I stated and you were attempting to refute!!!!

Wrong it proves why men could not understand though there were a few who did understand. Christ spoke in parables to keep men from understanding until he had paid the atonement.

Look. See for yourself. "Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:..."

You have focused on just this part of the scripture I posted and taken it out of context to make it seem as though you were right. If you read the whole scripture you will see why men could not hear or understand. It's simple if Christ had not spoke in parables men would have understood and believed and They would have been eligible for Salvation with out an atonement to pay for there sins.
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This verse above proves if Christ hadn't spoken in parables they would have heard and understood.

Isaiah foretold that the gospel would NOT be heard, and that it would be given to the gentiles. That the gentiles would hear.

No so;
It proves that only some could understand not all as you just claimed.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
In fact verse 27 states they closed there own eyes and I suspect they just wouldn't listen because it doesn't say they could not hear but that there ears were dull of hearing. Sort blows that inability to see and hear right out of the water don't it?
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
It's like say they just rejected everything they heard.

But what you neglect to grasp, is that the passage clearly states that this is God ordained. It is not the validation of some natural ability inbred from Adam that all men posses, rather it is a declarative statement of who and why the gospel message was being delivered to the gentiles.

I agree; I'm so glad you understood that.

Second, this passage does NOTHING to support that the gospel is understandable by "every mother's son."

Yes it does simply because the atonement was paid by Christ and Christ told the disciples to preach it. They did and what the parables didn't make understandable the disciples did by their preaching it. You can see the explanation of most of these parables in the New testament because the disciple wrote them down for our understanding. Don't take my word for it look at all the parables Christ told in His preaching

Throughout the gospels the phrase "ears to hear" is used. This phrase is an indicator that an ability is given to hear more than just words, but also to perceive and understand the meanings. That this ability was not given to "every mother's son" but unique and not generally endowed.

Only in the minds of Catholics like Agustine and Calvin and most reformers like your self. I'm a Gentile and I have Salvation. I know where I'll be when I die I have no doubts of it. If the rapture comes before my death I still am secure in my Salvation.
I was raised in a Christian family and was taught the Bible all of my life. I understood for a long time before I was saved. When I was a teen I finaly submitted and gave up the rebellion and was saved. My life has been changing ever since.
MB

MB

 

[agedman]

So, 1 Cor 2:14 does not prove a natural person cannot believe spiritual things, it says they do not "receive" them because they seem as foolishness to them. The moment they believe, the Spirit will come into them, and God's word will be opened up to them.

You are wrong!!!!!

The verse in the Greek states that the natural (brute, beastly, mere animal in nature) man cannot (incapable, never,) receive (comprehend, accept, embrace) the things of the spirit.

This is directly opposite of your view of what the verse states. But in the strongest terms Paul is stating that the person is Totally incapable of accepting and embracing. That includes the ability to "believe."

Therefore, it is impossible for salvation to be without the direct confrontational work of God.

How do you expect a common unsaved person to comprehend John 3:16 when a recent thread exposed that some on this board argued over the meanings of the term "begotten?"

 

[agedman]

It's simple if Christ had not spoke in parables men would have understood and believed and They would have been eligible for Salvation with out an atonement to pay for there sins.

Are you saying that Christ did NOT desire mankind to be saved and deliberately prevented them from understanding the gospel???

Yes it does simply because the atonement was paid by Christ and Christ told the disciples to preach it. They did and what the parables didn't make understandable the disciples did by their preaching it. You can see the explanation of most of these parables in the New testament because the disciple wrote them down for our understanding. Don't take my word for it look at all the parables Christ told in His preaching.

NO!
It is Christ that said of the Holy Spirit that the Spirit was to teach the believers. It is true to the believer in our modern time as it was to the disciples of Christ's time. Because the Scriptures are given to us by God through Christ, we do not come to some "understanding" because the disciples took mercy on us and wrote down the meanings. It was Christ that gave the meanings, not the disciples. It is Christ (the Word) that directs the Scriptures to bring meaning to our hearts in this modern day.

I'm a Gentile and I have Salvation. I know where I'll be when I die I have no doubts of it. If the rapture comes before my death I still am secure in my Salvation.
I was raised in a Christian family and was taught the Bible all of my life. I understood for a long time before I was saved. When I was a teen I finaly submitted and gave up the rebellion and was saved. My life has been changing ever since.
MB

MB

I am glad for your experience of salvation. Let's look at your own testimony and see where your view resides.

You state you were raised in a Christian home and taught the Bible. Was this not as Paul the apostle was as Saul. He was taught, but the Scriptures say that Saul "kicked" (was in rebellion) that is he sensed the claim of God on his life but rebelled against it.

The unbelievers can only feel sorry for themselves as was Adam at the fall, but you were not experiencing what the mere unsaved person can experience when taught and shown the scriptures. But, were as one illuminated by God with understanding and knowledge, and, as Saul, was brought to "Godly sorrow" which the Scriptures teach is an earmark of salvation.

You state you remained in this condition (in a convicted state) until you "submitted." Very good. It is as I have posted, before. A person who has Christ's claim on their life lives in submission. It is in that submission that you find your life changing.


I would further view your salvation as experiential to you. That no one else has become a believer exactly like you. That is the unique experience and claim Christ has placed upon you and your life. You were specifically chosen, and are held accountable for what you specifically are given.

 

[MB]

Are you saying that Christ did NOT desire mankind to be saved and deliberately prevented them from understanding the gospel???

What I said is that Christ spoke in parables so that the prophecy of Isaiah would be fulfilled and it was. The reason for this has many reasons. One I believe is that to stall men until the atonement was paid. No one could be saved with out the shedding of the blood of Jesus. O.T saints were set aside in paradise to await the hearing of the gospel in the presence of our Lord. Just like David wrote about in the Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:27.

You see if they understood they would have been healed and saved right then but as the OT saints were. They would have to go to Paradise just like the theif on the cross next to our Lord.

NO!
It is Christ that said of the Holy Spirit that the Spirit was to teach the believers. It is true to the believer in our modern time as it was to the disciples of Christ's time. Because the Scriptures are given to us by God through Christ, we do not come to some "understanding" because the disciples took mercy on us and wrote down the meanings. It was Christ that gave the meanings, not the disciples. It is Christ (the Word) that directs the Scriptures to bring meaning to our hearts in this modern day.

I do not disagree that the Holy Spirit is our teacher. I thank my Lord and savior for this great blessing. However the Holy Spirit is God and does not need a man to be saved inorder to teach him something. God taught Pharoah and he certainly was not saved nor was he ever. Pharoah understood and rebeled all the more just as many do today. As a child I knew Jesus could save me but I did not desire to be saved. I rebeled even though everyone at church was convinced I was saved. I was convinced that Christians were boring creatures and I only did what I thought was necessary to apease my parents wishes. I had my own agenda and it did not include Christ.

I am glad for your experience of salvation. Let's look at your own testimony and see where your view resides.

You state you were raised in a Christian home and taught the Bible. Was this not as Paul the apostle was as Saul. He was taught, but the Scriptures say that Saul "kicked" (was in rebellion) that is he sensed the claim of God on his life but rebelled against it.

The unbelievers can only feel sorry for themselves as was Adam at the fall, but you were not experiencing what the mere unsaved person can experience when taught and shown the scriptures. But, were as one illuminated by God with understanding and knowledge, and, as Saul, was brought to "Godly sorrow" which the Scriptures teach is an earmark of salvation.

You state you remained in this condition (in a convicted state) until you "submitted." Very good. It is as I have posted, before. A person who has Christ's claim on their life lives in submission. It is in that submission that you find your life changing.


I would further view your salvation as experiential to you. That no one else has become a believer exactly like you. That is the unique experience and claim Christ has placed upon you and your life. You were specifically chosen, and are held accountable for what you specifically are given.

We are all chosen; though differing circumstances bring results in different ways. I'm no different than anyone else. Over the last 50 years I've known many who had simular experinces. My submission is the result of being beaten in my fight of rebellion, I gave up because I could not bare the pain of the conviction. I'm was so releaved that I did because being saved was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. It hasn't been anything like I thought it would be. It's absolute peace in the midst of caous.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

You then do not stand in agreement with the scriptures speaking of the unsaved understanding the Word of God.

"neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You need to answer two questions:

1. What is "them" in reference to? Refer to verse 10.
2. By what means has God chosen to make these things known to man?

Is not Paul, by his very writing of this letter by inspiration of the Spirit, the means of God to 'spiritually discern' the 'meat' of the word for the brethren of Corinth, who he is addressing?

What means does God use to reveal his mysteries? How does he make these 'deep things of God' known?

INSPIRATION OF THE SPIRIT, which is what Paul is doing as he writes this letter to the CHURCH. Why is it that these 'brethren' could not accept these things either? Were the 'brethren' lost?

You've misinterpreted this text to make it fit your premise.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you see where you miss applied the Scriptures in a desire to prove that ALL men can understand .

1. If they can't understand it then they have a good excuse for not believing and accepting it.

2. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that men DO UNDERSTAND, which is the very reason they are 'without excuse."

3. Calvinism gives unbelievers the best excuse for their unbelief that exists: "God didn't grant me faith."

READ WHAT PAUL SAYS: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Why does Paul conclude these people are 'without excuse?' Because they 'clearly see and understand.'

You are either contradicting this text OR you believe that to understand something is equal to accepting it, and that it is somehow impossible for someone to understand a truth of God and still choose to reject it.

 

[jbh28]

1. If they can't understand it then they have a good excuse for not believing and accepting it.

2. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that men DO UNDERSTAND, which is the very reason they are 'without excuse."

3. Calvinism gives unbelievers the best excuse for their unbelief that exists: "God didn't grant me faith."

A better excuse, God didn't give me grace....

See, it's not a good argument to use. God can save whomever he chooses to save. The Bible doesn't teach that all men actively understand it. Man cannot blame God for lack of faith any more than man can blame God for lack of grace.

READ WHAT PAUL SAYS: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Why does Paul conclude these people are 'without excuse?' Because they 'clearly see and understand.'

You are either contradicting this text OR you believe that to understand something is equal to accepting it, and that it is somehow impossible for someone to understand a truth of God and still choose to reject it.

Their depraved, sinful state prevents them. It's there, so they are without excuse. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[Skandelon]

A better excuse, God didn't give me grace....

Salvation is "By grace THROUGH faith," so the reason one is not saved by grace is because they 'trade the truth (which they clearly see and understand) for a lie.'

. God can save whomever he chooses to save.

We agree. And according to scripture He has chosen to save whosoever believes. I'm glad we are in agreement here.

The Bible doesn't teach that all men actively understand it.

The please explain what does Paul mean when he writes, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Doesn't that say they do 'clearly see and understand,' or doesn't it?

Man cannot blame God for lack of faith any more than man can blame God for lack of grace.

True, if you believe as scripture teaches, but not if you believe Calvinistic teaching. Their lacking faith, according to Calvinists, is because God didn't grant it to them. I'm not arguing that you think they deserve it, I'm only telling you the reason for their unbelief. They were born unbelievers and God never grants them faith...there is no better excuse than that for unbelievers.

Their depraved, sinful state prevents them.

And who decided the punishment for the Fall in the garden would be this 'depraved, sinful state' that makes all mankind even unable to understand and thus respond to God's powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal to be reconciled?

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Keep reading. He is speaking to the 'brethren' who also cannot accept these things because they are 'carnal.' They too cannot receive the meat of the word, which is the very reason Paul, writing by SPIRITUAL INSPIRATION, is instructing them. Nothing in this text even suggests that unbelievers can't understand the gospel truth once it has been 'discerned' for them in human terms through God's chosen messengers.

 

[jbh28]

Salvation is "By grace THROUGH faith," so the reason one is not saved by grace is because they 'trade the truth (which they clearly see and understand) for a lie.'

you missed my point. You said that Calvinst give unbelievers and excuse (lack of faith). I simply pointed out that they could just say "lack of grace." God could have saved independent of faith if he choose to do so. He didn't, but we don't allow that to be an excuse.

True, if you believe as scripture teaches, but not if you believe Calvinistic teaching. Their lacking faith, according to Calvinists, is because God didn't grant it to them. I'm not arguing that you think they deserve it, I'm only telling you the reason for their unbelief. They were born unbelievers and God never grants them faith...there is no better excuse than that for unbelievers.

Again, my point above.

And who decided the punishment for the Fall in the garden would be this 'depraved, sinful state' that makes all mankind even unable to understand and thus respond to God's powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal to be reconciled?

Keep reading. He is speaking to the 'brethren' who also cannot accept these things because they are 'carnal.' They too cannot receive the meat of the word, which is the very reason Paul, writing by SPIRITUAL INSPIRATION, is instructing them. Nothing in this text even suggests that unbelievers can't understand the gospel truth once it has been 'discerned' for them in human terms through God's chosen messengers.

The text it self does. It says the natural state of man cannot understand. In verse 15, it is speaking to the "spiritual" as he makes a contrast to those in verse 14.

Let's look at the passage.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.​

Now we - speaking of believers. He will go on that we have understood the things freely given us by God. This is because we have received the "Spirit who is from God." That is why we can "understand the things freely given us by God." This doesn't come from "human wisdom." It is "taught by the Spirit."
Now, in verse 14, we have someone that doesn't accept the "things of the Spirit of God that was spoken of in verse 12. They have not received him. Thus, they are not able to "understand the things of the Spirit of God" because they don't have the Spirit of God to interpret spiritual truths. The Holy Spirit interprets spiritual truths to the spiritual. This is contrasted with the unsaved in verse 14 with those that don't understand.

 

[agedman]

1. If they can't understand it then they have a good excuse for not believing and accepting it.

Adam sought an excuse. He blamed others for what he chose to do. You would attempt the same by stating if they can't understand they are excused.

I have taken many tests. Some of the questions I did not comprehend for they were beyond my learning. Was I "excused" from the responsibility for the correct answer? Nope.

2. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that men DO UNDERSTAND, which is the very reason they are 'without excuse."

It is true that humankind are given the commandments as imprinted upon them (works for social order), and by the witness of the appearance even the natural world that there is God.

However, NO person has the innate natural ability nor the desire to understand or to come to God. The Scriptures declare that man is blinded and deaf to God.

3. Calvinism gives unbelievers the best excuse for their unbelief that exists: "God didn't grant me faith."

Some may want to think that way. The statement sounds good, and is an excuse in itself not to believe the truth.

The Scriptures answer the statement by declaration that God can do as He chooses and He is not answerable to humankind.

READ WHAT PAUL SAYS: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Why does Paul conclude these people are 'without excuse?' Because they 'clearly see and understand.'

You are either contradicting this text OR you believe that to understand something is equal to accepting it, and that it is somehow impossible for someone to understand a truth of God and still choose to reject it.

Your quote of Romans is taken out of the context.

Here it is:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Pause in the reading:
What people had the truth delivered to them? The Jews.
What people had the manifestation of God given in them and shown to them? The Jews


Continue the reading:
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here is where the gentiles also are without excuse. They, unlike the Jews, did not get all the benefits of the Jews, but are still held accountable by God.


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Knowing the "judgment of God" does not equal being capable of understanding and having the innate natural ability to accept God. For as it states, "without understanding," "reprobate (rejected, worthless) in the mind."

I did not contradict the text, but have clearly shown that humankind in the natural state have NO ability that some would hope to ascribe to them.

 

[Skandelon]

you missed my point. You said that Calvinst give unbelievers and excuse (lack of faith). I simply pointed out that they could just say "lack of grace." God could have saved independent of faith if he choose to do so. He didn't, but we don't allow that to be an excuse.

But neither camp claims that God saves anyone independent of faith, so what's the point in pointing that out?

The text it self does. It says the natural state of man cannot understand. In verse 15, it is speaking to the "spiritual" as he makes a contrast to those in verse 14.

Yes, it says that they can't understand "WITHOUT SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT." But what about if they do have spiritual discernment like the 'brethren' in Corinth? That is the point you continue to overlook.

If left to ourselves we would never understand the mysteries that the Holy Spirit revealed to us in the Gospels, right? But does that mean we can't understand the mysteries revealed through the work of the Holy Spirit in inspiring (discerning) these truths?

Look at it this way. Say you have secret and mysterious secret only known to you. Then you decide to author a book explaining and fully revealing these secrets. In that book you write something like, "No one knows or understands these secrets except those who learn them from me, for I am the only one who is able to explain (discern) them."

Then suppose someone reading your book concludes from this statement that no one can understand and accept the mysteries you have expressed in your book unless they meet with you personally first. Silly, right? Your book IS THE MEANS of making these mysteries known to the world for the very first time.

Now, back to Paul. He, a chosen apostle, selected by God to be an authoritative author of HIS book, as he writes under direct inspiration is telling the BRETHREN of Corinth that they and anyone living carnal lives cannot accept the "meat of the word"...the "deep things of the Spirit," because they must be explained (discerned) by the Spirit for you. And then Paul goes on to do just that by writing down what the spirit has discerned for him to write. They don't have any excuse not to understand his plan and clear teaching, as if God is giving some the ability to understand them and not others. God's means of revealing his mysteries was through inspiring messengers to write the scripture.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that anyone who really understands truth revealed by God will necessarily accept it? Or do you believe as Romans 1 teaches that there are people who 'clearly see and understand' God's revelation, but who trade that truth in for lies?

 

[Skandelon]

Adam sought an excuse. He blamed others for what he chose to do.

You said it....'what he CHOSE to do," not what God determined for him to do through secondary means etc... That is the difference.

You would attempt the same by stating if they can't understand they are excused.

No, that is Paul's conclusion. He said that they are 'without excuse' because they 'clearly saw and understood' God's revelation but chose to trade that truth in for a lie. They have NO excuse because God have them all that they needed to acknowledge Him as God but they CHOSE not to do so.

I have taken many tests. Some of the questions I did not comprehend for they were beyond my learning. Was I "excused" from the responsibility for the correct answer? Nope.

Why didn't you comprehend the questions? Your analogy, to be accurate, would need to acknowledge that the teacher somehow created you or the content of the test in such a way that made you unable to comprehend it and yet held you accountable for understanding and responding to it, which would be unfair by any objective standard.

It is true that humankind are given the commandments as imprinted upon them (works for social order), and by the witness of the appearance even the natural world that there is God.

Actually it says that they see and understand the divine attributes and eternal qualities of God by simply observing his creation. How much more could we then understand the appeal of the gospel which calls all men to repentance and faith?

However, NO person has the innate natural ability nor the desire to understand or to come to God.

Agreed, if left alone no one would come to repentance. But God didn't leave us alone. He sent Christ, the scripture, the gospel, apostles, the church and messengers to make an appeal to every creature to be reconciled to Him. You can't take passages which teach of our inability to call on God and apply them to your presumption that we are born unable to answer when God calls on us.

The Scriptures declare that man is blinded and deaf to God.

Actually it teachings that men "BECOME" blinded and deaf after continual rebellion otherwise they may see, hear, understand and repent."

Read Acts 28:21-28

 

[agedman]

Now, back to Paul. He, a chosen apostle, selected by God to be an authoritative author of HIS book, as he writes under direct inspiration is telling the BRETHREN of Corinth that they and anyone living carnal lives cannot accept the "meat of the word"...the "deep things of the Spirit," because they must be explained (discerned) by the Spirit for you. And then Paul goes on to do just that by writing down what the spirit has discerned for him to write. They don't have any excuse not to understand his plan and clear teaching, as if God is giving some the ability to understand them and not others. God's means of revealing his mysteries was through inspiring messengers to write the scripture.

The folks Paul wrote to had the Spirit to guide them into all truth. So when they read the letters of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit was part of the process.

It is not that way with the unbeliever, unless you are equating the ability to read with the ability to comprehend?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that anyone who really understands truth revealed by God will necessarily accept it? Or do you believe as Romans 1 teaches that there are people who 'clearly see and understand' God's revelation, but who trade that truth in for lies?

Again you reference Romans 1, but did you not see the post I made of the context of that passage?

There are none who, outside of Christ, "clearly see and understand." That is impossible according to Romans 1.

 

[Skandelon]

I also meant to point this out...

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Notice two things.

1. They KNEW God, but chose not the glorify him as God. What about this makes you suppose they were born unable to even understand God or acknowledge Him as God?

2. The "BECAME" vain and foolish and darkened...they weren't born that way.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

BECAME, not "were born that way"

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

God "gave them up," they weren't born 'given up.'

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie,

You have the have the truth to trade it in, yet Calvinism wants to insist they never understood the truth. If they didn't ever have the truth then what did they trade for lies? According to you they only ever had lies.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Notice the cause is not because God chose others and not them. The cause is that they chose to trade the clearly seen and understood truth in for a lie. And also notice again that God 'gave them up,' and they weren't born 'given up.'

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Again, they aren't born with the reprobate mind, and given over to it. This is a result of a choice to rebel against clearly seen and understood truth.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [/I]

Knowing the "judgment of God" does not equal being capable of understanding and having the innate natural ability to accept God.

But they knew more than the judgement they also clearly saw and understood "his eternal power and Godhead" and traded that truth in for lies. You can't trade in something you don't have. And you can't have it if you don't clearly see and understand it....which they did and which Paul concludes is the reason for their being 'without excuse.'

I did not contradict the text, but have clearly shown that humankind in the natural state have NO ability that some would hope to ascribe to them.

You give these people way too much credit. You exalt sinful men by teaching this. I say that God graciously loved and revealed himself to them providing all they needed, but they chose to rebel freely. They are fully deserving of their punishment because they rebelled DESPITE OF (not because of) God's choices. You give them a defense by suggesting they didn't have the ability, that they were born that way and had no real opportunity to even understand these truths. That gives them the easy way out. You make them sound like victims of God's arbitrary determinations when Paul makes it clear that they rebelled in spite of God's gracious provisions and mercy.

Men are much worse than you make them out to be.

 

[Skandelon]

The folks Paul wrote to had the Spirit to guide them into all truth. So when they read the letters of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit was part of the process.

It is not that way with the unbeliever, unless you are equating the ability to read with the ability to comprehend?

I believe someone can understand truth and still reject it, while apparently you believe that if someone understands it then they will necessarily accept it. That is not a biblical concept.

Calvinists love quoting 1 Cor 2:14, but I guess they suppose that where the chapter ends they must stop reading. Read the next few verses into the following chapter when Paul, in continuing this discussion regarding 'carnal/natural' men versus spiritual men...

"Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly.

Were the 'brothers,' who Paul called 'carnal,' also unable to accept these truths of the spirit? So, why does he refer to them as 'brothers'? Are they not saved? You are mixing apples with oranges.

Again you reference Romans 1, but did you not see the post I made of the context of that passage?

I just replied to that part...

There are none who, outside of Christ, "clearly see and understand." That is impossible according to Romans 1.

Yet Paul said they did...

"20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[jbh28]

But neither camp claims that God saves anyone independent of faith, so what's the point in pointing that out?

Because you were using the "excuse" argument and I'm showing that's not a valid argument. Anyone can give God an "excuse" for going to hell, but that doesn't excuse the sinner. That's why I'm pointing to that.

Yes, it says that they can't understand "WITHOUT SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT." But what about if they do have spiritual discernment like the 'brethren' in Corinth? That is the point you continue to overlook.

If left to ourselves we would never understand the mysteries that the Holy Spirit revealed to us in the Gospels, right? But does that mean we can't understand the mysteries revealed through the work of the Holy Spirit in inspiring (discerning) these truths?

Look at it this way. Say you have secret and mysterious secret only known to you. Then you decide to author a book explaining and fully revealing these secrets. In that book you write something like, "No one knows or understands these secrets except those who learn them from me, for I am the only one who is able to explain (discern) them."

Then suppose someone reading your book concludes from this statement that no one can understand and accept the mysteries you have expressed in your book unless they meet with you personally first. Silly, right? Your book IS THE MEANS of making these mysteries known to the world for the very first time.

The problem with your story is that Paul says why they don't understand. It wouldn't be silly if the statement above "no one knows..." was true. If no one can understand unless explained, it cannot be understood unless explained. I'll continue after your quote here.

Now, back to Paul. He, a chosen apostle, selected by God to be an authoritative author of HIS book, as he writes under direct inspiration is telling the BRETHREN of Corinth that they and anyone living carnal lives cannot accept the "meat of the word"...the "deep things of the Spirit," because they must be explained (discerned) by the Spirit for you. And then Paul goes on to do just that by writing down what the spirit has discerned for him to write. They don't have any excuse not to understand his plan and clear teaching, as if God is giving some the ability to understand them and not others. God's means of revealing his mysteries was through inspiring messengers to write the scripture.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that anyone who really understands truth revealed by God will necessarily accept it? Or do you believe as Romans 1 teaches that there are people who 'clearly see and understand' God's revelation, but who trade that truth in for lies?

The problem is that you are ignoring what Paul wrote. He said, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Again, the natural man does not accept because he is spiritually discerned. He doesn't have the spirit. that's exactly what Paul states.

you didn't address this point here. I carefully explained the passage. I'll do it with a little more detail again.

Now we - speaking of believers. He will go on that we have understood the things freely given us by God. This is because we have received the "Spirit who is from God." That is why we can "understand the things freely given us by God." This doesn't come from "human wisdom." It is "taught by the Spirit."
1 Corinthians 2:12-13
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

It would be wrong to say that we can understand the truths of God outside the Spirit. That would directly contradict the passage that says that it's the Spirit and not our own wisdom that teaches us the spiritual truths.

Now, in verse 14, we have someone that doesn't accept the "things of the Spirit of God that was spoken of in verse 12. They have not received him. Thus, they are not able to "understand the things of the Spirit of God" because they don't have the Spirit of God to interpret spiritual truths. The Holy Spirit interprets spiritual truths to the spiritual. This is contrasted with the unsaved in verse 14 with those that don't understand.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul contrasts a Spirit filled vs not Spirit filled person. One understand, one cannot understand. This is very clear here.