Calvinists would be Baptists holding to the 5 doctrines of Grace, while Reformed Baptist also hold to Confession of Faith such as 1689, and to Covenant Theology, minus the infant baptism
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Do we Calvinists really in Fullest sense deny the Trinity then?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
He received via the Virgin Birth a bypassing of our sinful natures, and had when conceived same Humanity as Adam before he fell, sinless humanity
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Surely there are plenty of Calvinists who are not Baptists?
Yes, they would be called reformed in the traditional sense of the term
I think the problem comes in when people accept the two natures part but reject the "inseparable" part (they hold a neo-orthodox view....Jesus "did this in His humanity", "did that in His divinity" type of heresy).
Deleting "inseparable" is just as much an error as deleting "without mixture". The former is "Christ in two persons" while the latter has Christ less than God and more than man (a hybrid).
What about the 1st Doctrine of Grace?
I ask because viewing children as being elect based on their parents status seems to be against what most Baptists who call them Calvinists believe.
Maybe it would be better for Baptists not to use "Calvinism" "Reformed", "doctrines of grace", or the "five points" since they (most?) really hold a superficial summary of the "Five Points" as expressed in orthodox Calvinism.
It seems that some people are confused between Trinitarianism and Modalism. Another look at the Chalcedonian Creed:
"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."
The problem is that we need to understand that the Persons of the Trinity are just that: three different Persons. The Lord Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit; the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, and the Sprit is not the Father or the Son. They have asymetric relationships with each other. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father, but the Father does not pray to the Son. They are the same God, but not the same Person. While each Person of the Trinity is involved in every action undertaken by one of them, but they are not involved in the same way. It is impossible that they should disagree with one another, but they combine together for the salvation of Mankind in different ways. God the Father sent the Son to suffer and die upon the cross; the Son willingly obeyed the Father (c.f. for example John 10:15-18). Their roles are not interchangeable.
Moreover, the Lord Jesus was true Man, as well as true God, and this is especially seen in the Stilling of the Storm episode in Mark 4:35-41. The Lord Jesus came on board the boat and went to sleep. Why did He go to sleep? Why does anyone go to sleep? Because He was tired! But God does not get tired (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, our Lord was hungry (Matt. 4:2) and thirsty (John 19:28). He was, and is, a Man - a real Man; Man as if He were not God. But then the disciples come to Him in a Panic, and He rebukes the wind and says to the sea, "Be still!" He does not ask His Father to still the storm; He does it Himself. He is God - true God; God as if He were not a Man (c.f. also Mark 2:6-11). To quote the creed again: "the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence."
Of course this has nothing to do with being a Baptist or a Calvinist. Plenty of paedobaptists and Arminians are also quite orthodox in their Trinitarianism. But to believe that there is not a distinction of natures in the Lord Jesus seems to be the ancient error of Sabellianism or Modalism
"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."
The problem is that we need to understand that the Persons of the Trinity are just that: three different Persons. The Lord Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit; the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, and the Sprit is not the Father or the Son. They have asymetric relationships with each other. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father, but the Father does not pray to the Son. They are the same God, but not the same Person. While each Person of the Trinity is involved in every action undertaken by one of them, but they are not involved in the same way. It is impossible that they should disagree with one another, but they combine together for the salvation of Mankind in different ways. God the Father sent the Son to suffer and die upon the cross; the Son willingly obeyed the Father (c.f. for example John 10:15-18). Their roles are not interchangeable.
Moreover, the Lord Jesus was true Man, as well as true God, and this is especially seen in the Stilling of the Storm episode in Mark 4:35-41. The Lord Jesus came on board the boat and went to sleep. Why did He go to sleep? Why does anyone go to sleep? Because He was tired! But God does not get tired (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, our Lord was hungry (Matt. 4:2) and thirsty (John 19:28). He was, and is, a Man - a real Man; Man as if He were not God. But then the disciples come to Him in a Panic, and He rebukes the wind and says to the sea, "Be still!" He does not ask His Father to still the storm; He does it Himself. He is God - true God; God as if He were not a Man (c.f. also Mark 2:6-11). To quote the creed again: "the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence."
Of course this has nothing to do with being a Baptist or a Calvinist. Plenty of paedobaptists and Arminians are also quite orthodox in their Trinitarianism. But to believe that there is not a distinction of natures in the Lord Jesus seems to be the ancient error of Sabellianism or Modalism
Last edited:
Jesus has both natures of deity and sinless humanity
My personal view is that God chose to elect unto salvation all aborted babies, infants, small children, and mentally restricted children and adults alike
Jesus alone among the Trinity is the God man, only One to assume human flesh and human nature to go with His already deity nature
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I asked you before to give an example of “Calvinists” that hold Jesus was a sinner (as you stated Calvinists believe) instead of bearing our sins on the cross.
I guess I’ll ask, with unbounded optimism, for you that give an example of Calvinists that don’t hold to the “inseparable” element of the natures.
Peace to you
That would be like saying that we hold Jesus to have a split personality
Well, since I never claimed that Calvinists hold that Jesus was among sinner I extended you the grace of ignoring that question.
Members on this forum who are Calvinists often claim that Jesus walked on water using His divine nature and died using His human nature (most recently @JesusFan separated these natures...if I recall with walking on water...but others have with healings).
The First Doctrine of Grace" deals with election (it is summarized superficially with the "T" of TULIP).
This "Doctrine of Grace" deals with children. It states that children of beluevers are elect based on their parents faith.
" the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."
Do you believe the First "Doctrine of Grace" is accurate?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You said in your very first sentence in your very first post on this thread.
So, again, Please provide an example of “Calvinists” that hold God the Father looked upon Jesus as if He were a sinner instead of bearing the sins of the elect.
Peace to you
Lol.....yea....obviously that is not what I said in my very first post on thus thread.
If it were you would not have changed your request to what I actually said - (that God looked upon Christ as if He were a sinner).
Sproul wrote that on the cross to God "Jesus was the ultimate obscenity", that Jesus was "under the anathema of the Father".
Sproul agreed with Luther that "If thou wilt deny Him to be a sinner and accursed, deny, also, that he was crucified and dead".
Both Luther and Sproul affirmed that Jesus did not sin but that God "looked upon Him as the vilest of sinners".
The Father saw and treated Jesus upon the Cross as the great sin bearer receiving in his Person was was due to me as a sinner
Would see it in the light of Baptist Reformed, not as Presbartarian Reformed and their view on the Baptism equating children as being included under the New Covenant via water Baptism now
Jesus is both God and Man, natures of Deity and sinless humanity in same Person, correct?
Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [or 'crush'] Him; He has put Him to grief.' These words are all of one syllable each and very easy to understand. If anyone's theology leads him to deny that it pleased the Father to bruise the Son and put Him to grief, perhaps that person ought to reconsider his theology.
Likewise with Mark 15:34. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Try as one may, it is impossible to make that sentence mean, "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me."
The question of God's wrath has come up. Was God wrathful towards the Lord Jesus? I think we must be clear that He was not; the Lord Jesus never ceased to be the beloved Son (Mark 1:11 etc.). God wrath was directed towards human sin, and the Lord Jesus was the sinbearer (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24). So all God's righteous anger against sin and sinners was poured out upon the innocent Christ, even to the point of His being separated from the Father during the three hours of darkness so that God could be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Rom. 3:26). And Christ submitted to this willingly (John 10:17-18; Phil. 2:6-8), for it is impossible that the Persons of the Trinity should be at variance with one another.
But at the ninth hour, the darkness ended, and our Lord could cry, "It is finished!" The word can also mean, "It is accomplished," "It is fulfilled" or "it is paid. Divine justice is satisfied, and the Lord Jesus could commit His spirit to the Father. And He is therefore worthy of all our praise and worship: 'For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God [or 'purchased us for God'] by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign upon the earth' (Rev. 5:9-10).
Once again, none of this is exclusively Calvinist or Baptist teaching. Many Arminians and Presbyterians believe this also. Nor does it contradict the Chalcedonian Confession.
Likewise with Mark 15:34. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Try as one may, it is impossible to make that sentence mean, "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me."
The question of God's wrath has come up. Was God wrathful towards the Lord Jesus? I think we must be clear that He was not; the Lord Jesus never ceased to be the beloved Son (Mark 1:11 etc.). God wrath was directed towards human sin, and the Lord Jesus was the sinbearer (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24). So all God's righteous anger against sin and sinners was poured out upon the innocent Christ, even to the point of His being separated from the Father during the three hours of darkness so that God could be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Rom. 3:26). And Christ submitted to this willingly (John 10:17-18; Phil. 2:6-8), for it is impossible that the Persons of the Trinity should be at variance with one another.
But at the ninth hour, the darkness ended, and our Lord could cry, "It is finished!" The word can also mean, "It is accomplished," "It is fulfilled" or "it is paid. Divine justice is satisfied, and the Lord Jesus could commit His spirit to the Father. And He is therefore worthy of all our praise and worship: 'For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God [or 'purchased us for God'] by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign upon the earth' (Rev. 5:9-10).
Once again, none of this is exclusively Calvinist or Baptist teaching. Many Arminians and Presbyterians believe this also. Nor does it contradict the Chalcedonian Confession.
Last edited: