Calvinists would be Baptists holding to the 5 doctrines of Grace, while Reformed Baptist also hold to Confession of Faith such as 1689, and to Covenant Theology, minus the infant baptism
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Do we Calvinists really in Fullest sense deny the Trinity then?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
He received via the Virgin Birth a bypassing of our sinful natures, and had when conceived same Humanity as Adam before he fell, sinless humanity
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Surely there are plenty of Calvinists who are not Baptists?
Yes, they would be called reformed in the traditional sense of the term
I think the problem comes in when people accept the two natures part but reject the "inseparable" part (they hold a neo-orthodox view....Jesus "did this in His humanity", "did that in His divinity" type of heresy).
Deleting "inseparable" is just as much an error as deleting "without mixture". The former is "Christ in two persons" while the latter has Christ less than God and more than man (a hybrid).
What about the 1st Doctrine of Grace?
I ask because viewing children as being elect based on their parents status seems to be against what most Baptists who call them Calvinists believe.
Maybe it would be better for Baptists not to use "Calvinism" "Reformed", "doctrines of grace", or the "five points" since they (most?) really hold a superficial summary of the "Five Points" as expressed in orthodox Calvinism.
It seems that some people are confused between Trinitarianism and Modalism. Another look at the Chalcedonian Creed:
"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."
The problem is that we need to understand that the Persons of the Trinity are just that: three different Persons. The Lord Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit; the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, and the Sprit is not the Father or the Son. They have asymetric relationships with each other. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father, but the Father does not pray to the Son. They are the same God, but not the same Person. While each Person of the Trinity is involved in every action undertaken by one of them, but they are not involved in the same way. It is impossible that they should disagree with one another, but they combine together for the salvation of Mankind in different ways. God the Father sent the Son to suffer and die upon the cross; the Son willingly obeyed the Father (c.f. for example John 10:15-18). Their roles are not interchangeable.
Moreover, the Lord Jesus was true Man, as well as true God, and this is especially seen in the Stilling of the Storm episode in Mark 4:35-41. The Lord Jesus came on board the boat and went to sleep. Why did He go to sleep? Why does anyone go to sleep? Because He was tired! But God does not get tired (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, our Lord was hungry (Matt. 4:2) and thirsty (John 19:28). He was, and is, a Man - a real Man; Man as if He were not God. But then the disciples come to Him in a Panic, and He rebukes the wind and says to the sea, "Be still!" He does not ask His Father to still the storm; He does it Himself. He is God - true God; God as if He were not a Man (c.f. also Mark 2:6-11). To quote the creed again: "the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence."
Of course this has nothing to do with being a Baptist or a Calvinist. Plenty of paedobaptists and Arminians are also quite orthodox in their Trinitarianism. But to believe that there is not a distinction of natures in the Lord Jesus seems to be the ancient error of Sabellianism or Modalism
"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."
The problem is that we need to understand that the Persons of the Trinity are just that: three different Persons. The Lord Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit; the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, and the Sprit is not the Father or the Son. They have asymetric relationships with each other. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father, but the Father does not pray to the Son. They are the same God, but not the same Person. While each Person of the Trinity is involved in every action undertaken by one of them, but they are not involved in the same way. It is impossible that they should disagree with one another, but they combine together for the salvation of Mankind in different ways. God the Father sent the Son to suffer and die upon the cross; the Son willingly obeyed the Father (c.f. for example John 10:15-18). Their roles are not interchangeable.
Moreover, the Lord Jesus was true Man, as well as true God, and this is especially seen in the Stilling of the Storm episode in Mark 4:35-41. The Lord Jesus came on board the boat and went to sleep. Why did He go to sleep? Why does anyone go to sleep? Because He was tired! But God does not get tired (Isaiah 40:28). Elsewhere, our Lord was hungry (Matt. 4:2) and thirsty (John 19:28). He was, and is, a Man - a real Man; Man as if He were not God. But then the disciples come to Him in a Panic, and He rebukes the wind and says to the sea, "Be still!" He does not ask His Father to still the storm; He does it Himself. He is God - true God; God as if He were not a Man (c.f. also Mark 2:6-11). To quote the creed again: "the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence."
Of course this has nothing to do with being a Baptist or a Calvinist. Plenty of paedobaptists and Arminians are also quite orthodox in their Trinitarianism. But to believe that there is not a distinction of natures in the Lord Jesus seems to be the ancient error of Sabellianism or Modalism
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