You said that if I didn't have a verse, the babies are all going to hell. You win.
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Do we hacve fallen sin natures or not now?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
You said that if I didn't have a verse, the babies are all going to hell. You win.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3-4 ).
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:12 ).
" For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." ( Romans 5:19 ).
" What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Romans 3:9-12 ).
Why do you say false things?
Go re-read the posts I have made. Then re-think your own understanding of what scripture actually says.
Here is what you said.
There is no "age of reason" mentioned or implied in the Bible.
I'm saying God never teaches that people are automatically saved until some unspecified "age of reason." You are free to provide scripture and prove me wrong.
I never provided you with any Scripture to prove you wrong, so you are right, and God does hold sin against babies. They have to go to hell because they were never saved. Your logic, not mine.
So, you are stating that since you can find no scripture for the "age of reason" theory, therefore God sends infants to hell. That is your conclusion.
My conclusion is that all humans are saved or cursed by God's choice to either extend grace or not extend grace. The age doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what God decides.
The question is: What does God decide about infants who are not capable of expressing a discernable, God given, faith? Does God extend grace?
Here is what we know from scripture when David's infant child died.
When God records David's response, is David wrong in his belief about seeing his son some day after David dies?
I believe God recorded this to give us a glimpse of God's decision to be gracious to infants whom he has allowed to die. Can I speak definitively? No. I must live by faith in what I read and have concluded.
But, the "age of reason" theory, removes God as the one who determines who is redeemed. Instead the "age of reason" theory places the responsibility for salvation upon the rational decision making of the human being with God being a passive observer who does not make a choice at all. The burden for salvation lies entirely on the human's discernment skills.
What I reject is the syncretist teaching of human choice superceding God's authority to choose. I reject your soteriological assumption.
Are you a Calvinist?
If God can create the universe out of nothing, I am pretty sure He can get unborn children into heaven
I believe what the Bible teaches.
So you are a Calvinist.
Well, that is swell of you.
I know that you don't.
Does the Bible teach Calvinist?
It seems that you are seeking an excuse for having no biblical support for the "age of reason" theory you have claimed. Are you out of verses or have you found a website that provides documented support for you?
I am declining to debate you on that and I am letting you win by default and following what I guess is Calvinism to its natural conclusion, which seems to me to be only the elect go to heaven and the elect are a small number of Calvinists but I find that I am not a Calvinist so I don't know.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." ( Isaiah 7:14-16 ).
" And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." ( Matthew 1:21-23 ).
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The Bible says that God's redeemed come from every nation, tribe and tongue. I highly doubt John Calvin had a corner on the market.
We are born already condemned and under divine judgment!
