Yes is my answer. God made the man of flesh, gave him law, thou shall not eat, which sold him under sin for the very purpose of redemption (from death) and adoption (to life).
See my previous post.
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Do we hacve fallen sin natures or not now?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Yes is my answer. God made the man of flesh, gave him law, thou shall not eat, which sold him under sin for the very purpose of redemption (from death) and adoption (to life).
See my previous post.
That is the Bible answer as well. God made Adam flesh (like we are "flesh") and when God introduced a commandment Adam fell short of God's glory and sinned (just like us). We are by nature what Adam was by nature and we need to be born again Spiritually.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:12 ).
" For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." ( Romans 5:19 )
What is the "death" spoken of here?
How were we "made" sinners?
" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." ( Ephesians 2:1-3 ).
Is "death" not being "dead in trespasses and sins", walking "according to the course of this world", and according to the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience?
According to the "lusts of our flesh and fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" by nature?
If so, then how do you conclude that all men did not inherit a problem that was passed down generation to generation?
Questions:
According to the Bible, do we as men sin naturally, or unnaturally?
Are we born into it ( Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, etc ), or do we all just stumble into the same rut like lemmings?
Is sin a problem of the heart ( Matthew 15:18-20 ), or simply of circumstances or of environment?
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davidgeminden
Member
Some added explanation to my babble in my reply #79.
According to Eph. 2:3 there is something non-physical in fallen mankind that lusts after the desires of the flesh and mind which is referred to as nature of mankind ( ---"were by NATURE the children of wrath," --- ) which I refer to as the evil pole of our bipolar ( good and evil ) fallen nature. Also in Rom. 2:14 the Gentiles "do by NATURE the things contained in the law" which I refer to as the good pole of our bipolar ( good and evil ) fallen nature.
The majority of theologians that I have read refer to this nature as being sinful or evil ( a single poled nature of evil ).
According to Eph. 2:3 there is something non-physical in fallen mankind that lusts after the desires of the flesh and mind which is referred to as nature of mankind ( ---"were by NATURE the children of wrath," --- ) which I refer to as the evil pole of our bipolar ( good and evil ) fallen nature. Also in Rom. 2:14 the Gentiles "do by NATURE the things contained in the law" which I refer to as the good pole of our bipolar ( good and evil ) fallen nature.
The majority of theologians that I have read refer to this nature as being sinful or evil ( a single poled nature of evil ).
I am saying that Bible is right, and that Adam was originally created in sinless flesh state before the Fall!
Flesh is our physical body, and human nature, Adam was created perfect and sinless, and then Fell, and we were corrupted in him now!
Are we all born with sinful natures, flesh, or basically clean slate, and we decide to become sinners or not?
Jesus stated that in fallen mankind is a corrupt heart, and nothing goof comes out of it!
But that is not what the Bible actually says. The Bible says Adam was created "flesh". You said "flesh" means "sinful nature".
But not according to Paul and Jesus, correct?
davidgeminden
Member
Yeshua1, do you hold to Calvinist soteriology, since you believe nothing good comes out of an unsaved person's heart/will.
davidgeminden
Member
Yeshua1, If nothing good can come out of an unsaved person's heart/will, how can a unsaved person of his own free will do the good thing of accepting/believing in Jesus as his perfect sacrifice for his sins?
Nobody is concerned about the bogeyman lie that is the slander of "Pelagianism".
That's overplayed.
Taking all available evidence, I'd say there is about a 200% higher likelihood that Pelagius was saved than the evil and slanderous Gnostic Augustine.
Nobody is actually "Pelagian" though....including Pelagius.
Pelagius never believed that and it is provably false that he believed it.
And it is also wrong.
Calvinist Theologians have believed that lie from Augustine and taught it, and now some believe it.
It is not true.
Thus, the bogeyman slander of "Pelagianism" is a meaningless and ignorant slander.
https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Pelagia...2&sprefix=the+myth+of+pelagian,aps,240&sr=8-1
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There is before and after Adam ... Before Adam fell, sinless humanity right relationship with God, after fell, we all are in His same sin state!
Paul stated that we all spiritual died in Adam, and all spiritual alive now in Christ, correct?
I would see it more that while can still do and say good things, as in regards to salvation, none of us come be saved apart from the will and purpose and grace of God!
Spiritually dead in our sins and transgressions!
He cannot, as they will need the Holy Spirit to quicken them and enable them to believe!
The truth is that this theology holds that Man has not been affected by the Fall, are born in a neutral state towards God, and that we can still freely decide to receive Jesus on our own, apart from working of the Holy Spirit towards us!
I do not understand how you relate this to "nature". Scripture speaks of Adam as being made "flesh" to demonstrate that we are "flesh", not that Adam was made one flesh and us another.
Since you seem to reject the idea presented in the Bible of two types of "natures" (the "flesh" and the "spirit") in favor of natures related to the Fall, can you at least define nature itself?